After years, the Javelin is still not nerfed, and completely broken

As unbelieveable as it sounds, there seems to be a need to reiterate this: The Javelin is probably the single most broken overpowered weapon in the entire game and it needs to be severely weakened. I got it, DLC has to be powercreep to sell it, but Fartshark, you got your money, now can you please relieve us of this menace? Who in the right mind thought it would be OK to have a ranged weapon with infinite ammo, armor pen, infinite body penetration, and enough damage to one or twoshot most elites and specials AND THEN LEAVE IT IN THE GAME LIKE THAT? Bonus: it’s a somewhat decent melee weapon, as well. All this for Kerillian, whose careers already range from A to S tier without such BS weapon.

Besides the obvious problem of trivializing the game, being basically a cheat button to delete bunched up hordes, elites, specials, all without any sort of meaningful limitation (like ammo, or the need to build the career around making the weapon effective, sacrificing other aspects, as with most dedicated ranger careers), which is a huge issue in and of itself, the current state of the Javelin also encourages a highly toxic, selfish, and overconfident playstyle that made the term “Javelin Elf” a widely recognized slur in the community. Javelin Elf is the player who won’t let anyone get temp HP, because throwing an infinite amount of Javelins at trash mobs is FUN. Especially if it goes through a teammate or two’s back. Javelin Elf is the player who won’t switch to their melee weapon, because the Javelin’s melee can carry them most of the time. Until it suddenly can’t, they start taking hits, and they consume all the healing, too. Javelin Elf is the player who is a complete idiot, playing completely oblivious to the fact that while they sweat to get all the green circles, their teammates carry the game when it really matters. They cover the Javelin Elf who is there to have FUN by having a point-and-click adventure, until, because they play a broken weapon that trivializes the game, the Javelin Elf vastly overestimate their ability. They run ahead, alone, thinking they can own anything and everything, then die miserably because they are alone. And then they ragequit. Javelin Elf is the player who, when they see a teammate fighting an elite in front, and about to be backstabbed by a skaven slave, they throw the elite to steal the kill and let their teammate get shanked from the back. The green circle for elites is more prestigious, after all. The list goes on, and frankly, bringing up all the moronic deeds and ways of thinking this weapon inspires would make this post way too long.

I can’t fathom how Fartshark could go without nerfing this thing to the ground in the latest update. I refuse to believe that they do not know about the problem.

There is no reason why this thing should have a base ammo count of 3. Make it 2. Waystalker will still get 4, and Handmaiden with 40% extra ammo talent will still get 3. And make the reload significantly slower. Then the player will actually have to think where they throw, and not just spam Javelins non-stop. There is no reason why this thing should have infinite body penetration. It should be no more than 3. Then the weapon would not delete entire hordes. There is no reason why the Javelin should have a melee option that is viable enough to allow using it exclusively. Like with other ranged weapons that have melee, it shouldn’t be useful beyond killing the odd enemy or two that surprises you from close range. There is no reason why the Javelin should have devastating damage AND with some practice, excellent range and accuracy. It should either be a highly damaging close to mid-range elite-deleter, OR a less damaging sniper, not both at the same time. The weapon needs some weaknesses, limitations, and drawbacks, not just strengths, infinite versatility, and advantages, as it is the case now.

Fix this damn broken sh*t already.

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Despite being designed for melee combat, Shade and Handmaiden players often revert to an overreliance on javelin spamming, sidelining their careers’ unique capabilities. It’s a common sight to see such players lingering behind their teammates, prioritizing easy javelin shots over engaging in melee. This trend, while somewhat effective, detracts from the intended purpose of these melee-centric careers and requires little skill or effort.

Waystalker players will most often use them as well though, though, if they were more knowledgeable they might realize the Hagbane has higher damage output with AOE being the best against large groups of enemies, and a more skilled player could use the longbow to greater effect with consistent headshots.

To curb the overuse of javelins and restore balance, I suggest implementing slower reload times and reducing the staggering and penetration effect. These changes would incentivize players to strategize and pick their shots carefully, discouraging them from selfishly prioritizing easy kills from a safe distance.

Javelins, although enjoyable, are now disproportionately favored, with approximately 9/10 elf players opting for them. Since the Moonfire bow nerf, their popularity unrivaled, with a close second being the Corruscation Staff. If Sienna were as popular a pick as Kerillian, then we’d probably see as much Corruscation Staff as Javelins. Overuse of these weapons highlights the need for gameplay balance adjustments.

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I screenshot this reply from Aqshy on a Reddit post a few weeks back regarding buffs/nerfs. I’m hoping we get a patch in the future regarding balance, not just of javelins/corus staff etc.

If they are gonna be nerfed I’d hate to see them end up with the same date as the moonbow, yeah it was strong but what they did to it was just too much imo. It sucks that people are just gravitating to these strong weapons as I don’t mind them but I also like to change up my builds every so often to keep it fresh.

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Yeah, I personally think the penetration is the main busted thing about the javelin, but increasing reload time would make every shot need to be considered more carefully too.

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I guess if we get a rework it will come with the new sienna career in september/october.

I guess removing the stagger on jav is all what is needed. On coruscation staff the damage is fine but there should be a mechanic that reduces the damage per geysir the more geysirs you place.
So you have to think about where you place them and not just spamming it.

The cleave is also absolutely insane. Which is why it demolishes lined up hordes. Javs have 320% more clave than the longbow. Hell, javs have 33% more cleave than the bolt staff at full charge. It also has 6 dodges with +20% range.

Really the only marked weakness of the weapon is the low max ammo is and how much time the user need to spend reloading. Which, in unmodded gameplay, is rarely an issue outside of wild twitch settings and deeds.

A thrown javelin having decently high stagger is also a bit more believable than a thrown javelin being able to go through an entire horde.

yeah but the damage output really depends on lined up enemies. If enemies arent lined up, which is most often the case in spicy situation, only the stagger is what brings the jav ahead. Thats why i would only remove the stagger.

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Might as well throw crossbow / duckfoot bounty hunter into the mix. The real issue I see is cataclysm being paywalled. You still get overconfident players rage/shamequitting, but other than Battle Wizard with croissant staff it’s a much better game balance and pub experience.

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The Crossbow itself is not unbalanced. Both Bardin’s Crossbow and BH’s Crossbow have the same stats. What makes BH’s crossbow build more effective is the synergy with blessed shots, which hits easy breakpoints. This synergy works well with all of his ranged weapons, and the XBow is not an exception. In terms of damage output, the Crossbow Bounty Hunter is comparable to the Longbow Waystalker. He doesn’t possess any extraordinary qualities and arguably requires more skill to efficiently utilize compared to relying on cooldown stacking to spam Truehot volley for a few easy headshots.

Regarding the Duckfoot pistol, it is indeed overpowered, but mainly when utilized by the BH; their potency is not nearly so egregiously unbalanced when wielded by WHC or Zealot. Again, the reason behind its dominance on the BH lies in the fact that his blessed shots can be restored upon melee kills with the best talent on the level 20 row, enabling a steady stream of critical hits that effectively penetrate both armored enemies and hordes. Additionally, Duckfoot BH’s are not seen nearly as commonly used as Javelins or Corruscation. I think the reason for that is that players can not spam them from a safe distance like they can with Javelins or Corruscation. BH’s are still squishy and will have to get close to really unleash the damage with the Duckfoot.

My 2 cents; Keep as is except for the insane cleave.
I love the Javelin but tend not to use it because it feels like an exploit to use it when it can erase entire hordes with just a few throws.

My list of wanted changes to Kerillians ranged weapons:

  • Reduce javelin cleave a lot.
  • Bring back moonfire bow as before with aoe, but less damage ( or do something new and unique with it).
  • Give volley crossbow more ammo (I love the crossbow but never use it because of the amount of ammo in it).
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Get rid of cleave, reduce stagger, increase reload speed.

But. Elf is waifu, FS have always favoured keri.

If we’re being whimsical it might be a meta-decision to nurture the resentment in players towards elf that the other races within game feel.

Whatever, its bloody working. I absolutely hate getting double javs in the back and it often makes me consider leaving games… until the elf gets caught by a hookrat and i let the b*tch strangle.

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You’re joking right? Most range weapons can 1 or 2 shot elites. Handguns will 1 shot bodies, BoP, Xbow, and most bows will 1 shot if it’s a head. Trollhammer will 1 shot most elites and kill an entire crowd of them.

The Javlin isn’t overpowered. It’s power level is basically the same as the Slayers throwing axes and we’ve had those for years without anyone calling for the throwing axes to be nerfed.

Besides after how they gutted the MFB I wouldn’t trust Fatshark to go near the Javlins.
The Javlins only really shine on WS, on Shade you’re forced to reload after 3 volleys, so you might kill 2 or 3 SV, sure, but you’re not killing a CW with 3 volleys, especially on Cata.

That only happens if they use Sarges master tactic from RVB.
That’s not a Javlin issue, that’s a AI path finding issue, and horde spawn issue which most maps suffer from.

I think the reason you don’t see many Elf players use the Hag is because the Hag isn’t really a fun bow to use and it’s only viable on one career. Yes it has good dot damage, but thing is, if I wanted to play a career with strong dots, well Sienna exists. Sienna can do everything the hag can do but immensely better.

As for the Javlin popularity, that’s clearly because of the ammo management. Javlins can’t run out of ammo, every other option for Kerillian can with the exception of MFB, but we all know the MFB was nerfed to the ground. All snipers have cleave, with the exception of the MFB, it instead had AOE, but they gutted the bow by completely removing its AOE and because of that the MFB is something of a pea shooter with long kill times. Ergo, when you’re choosing between the MFB or the Javlin for sniping, the Javlin wins.

Nah, such weapons of war actually would cleave through several men. The phenomena is called a “pass through” The arrows of longbows are capable of passing through men too because of the power behind the draw. These weapons were designed to penetrate armour, so unprotected flesh offers little resistance. So ironically the stagger is more unrealistic on unarmored targets since the bloody arrow or javlin would go right through you.

An example of what I’m talking about at 0:50: Assassination scene King Arthur Legend Of The Sword - YouTube

It’s also possible you’re getting people who built their careers for Cata, joining legend and deleting everything making them think such weapons/careers are OP. Thing is if you build your career for Cataclysms and you’re use to Cataclysms difficulty spike then play on Legend you will delete everything. No different if a person use to Legend plays on Champion or Veteran.

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you are definitely right with all your points mentioned. I just want to add that the javelin builds on the elf arent the builds which deal the most damage, maybe with one exception the double sword sister with jav.

For example one of the highest dps builds for sister is a “Briar`s Malice” + “smiter” + “recursive Toxins” + Hunter on staff build using sword&dagger as melee weapon. With “bonded Spirit” and Radiance you are able to keep up your hunter buff almost for the whole time you are fighting.

For shade longbow or MFB is better so you are more enganged in melee to trigger blur for 100% critchance.

For Handmaiden a hunter build with power from pain is also stronger in terms of damage.

And on Waystalker Hagbane is is the one to go in terms of damage output.

Sure there are also some other viable javelin builds next to the sister double sword + jav build as well, like exquiste Huntress + jav on shade or piercing shot + jav on waystalker which can shine.

But for the exquiste huntress + jav, you are relying on lined up enemies which you all can headshot at once to get instantly 10 stacks. Since it is very situational and also rely on the map layout most often other range weapons would maybe be a better choice to maximize your overall damage output. Especially because most of the shade`s damage is done in melee and can be increased most efficiently with triggering blur.

On waystalker loaded bow + jav cant compete with hagbane, but if you are good with piercing shot jav can be a nice backup option if you are missing your ult, due to the fact that jav is in melee one of the highest monster dps weapons in game. But as said this build requires a lot of practice.

Over all jav builds deal less damage than other builds on each of her careers. The fact why jav is still the most picked range weapon on elf is just because its safe and easy to use. For example against maulers and chaos warriors its just “keep throwing and keep the big guys staggered”. Players can shut down their brain and its all narrowed down to “keep throwing”. It`s a lazy but also a highly efficient and save playstyle, but certainly not the best one if you want to max out your damage output.

If you want to break the “keep throwing” mentality by making the javelin more unsafe to play and force the elves to play more careful and more engaging you have to nerf the stagger heavily. It is absultely stupid to see shade players and handmaidens doing 3/4 of their kills with a range weapon even if their careers are usually meant to be melee careers.

Edit: the cleave i dont mind, spicy situations are most often not lined up enemies but scattered enemies all over the place where the jav struggles, the lazy playstyle is all about the stupid stagger.
Removing cleave and stagger makes it just another bow without any identity. I am not sure if we should aim for this. It should be enough to make it more unsafe to play and denying the “just throw” mentality.

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i appreciate the addition “for sniping” :wink:

Yes, and…

And because it’s easy. It’s a low-effort, high-reward tool for players, particularly anyone playing below cataclysm, since it can easily be spec’d to one-shot black rats and all specials as well as horde spam.

EDIT: I want to add that I don’t want to see this weapon gutted, it just needs a bit of tweaking to raise the skill floor for using it.

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