Elf needs a nerf

No it’s just Elf being stupidly op and noob-friendly since the beginning.

Trollbazooka for dwarf is barely played, double organ guns is never played.

Infinite ammo on 2 weapons, infinite ammo and auto aim missiles on ult for ranger, biggest window burst in the game with the shadow, maiden which make solo cata a piece of cake.

I mean, normally i don’t care about classes being gamebreaker nor far stronger than others in a coop game.

But it greatly damage the game experience as we see guys spamming legend/cata with their op character and all they doing is spamming javelin/moonbow all day long , even vs hordes and it work but when they need to clutch they don’t because they lacks basics and can barely side dodge …
I mean what’s the point of learning when you just have to spam javelin and dlc elf brainless ult and stay safe with distance ?

Remember a time when ammos were rare and you 'd be wise to use them with caution ?

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I think it’s Skaven/Infantry/Chaos/Monsters, and Enhanced Power, lets you Heavy Shot > Light Shot every Special with body shots.

Yeah, I’m just saying. I mostly go for GR on most of my Ranged Weapons, but this build is kinda nice in tight situations.

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Giving up assassin so you can have the lazy convenience of skipping otherwise easy headshots feels weird tho, the only really needed ones are for assassins and bestigors.

Well as far as i’ve thought about it anyway, never really spent much time beyond some quick tests.

Seems quite an investment. At least personally not something I would consider when stuff such as stormers/gunners/flamers are pretty easy to just headshot. Giving up on assassin is also a lot of free melee power.

Yeah a lot of vanilla weapons are too vanilla for their own good. Just not being able to combo your lights/heavies like most of the DLC melees can is a drawback in itself, and they mostly just have sweep moves that alternate direction instead of the Swiss army knife move for every situation we get with new stuff. Unsurprisingly the most popular VT1 weapons are the ones that were DLC in that game. Except the rapier which has just been perfect to use in both titles no complaints there.

But still the point of new content is to add new ways to play and not replace the old. Non veggie tales elves are a rarity, and elves that don’t run moonfire or Javelin basically don’t exist at the moment. Clearly something is gone with the variety.

Yeah, I’m not a fan of easy ammo, or the op javelins and moonfire bow. Most elf melee is noob friendly spam attacks; particularly with sword and dagger.

Waystalker ult probably shouldn’t offer infinite ammo, but it’s not too OP without bloodshot and the infinite 30% ammo restoration.

Shade’s 5 second crit window is smaller than sott’s superhuman 10 second window. I think shade is fine. You didn’t even elaborate on why handmaiden is cata solo material. I think of you’re talking crits, I prefer WH, and easy rapier headshots. Shade is just better at killing bosses.

When I was new to the game, I found elf difficult because of low health. Same with bounty hunter. I don’t think it’s nearly as noob friendly as Iron breaker or Foot Knight. Tanks were my go-to early on for Legend and Cata

No? It wasnt ever, at least not for WS , Sienna, saltz or ranger, they´ve always had infinite ammo schemes.

Huntsman technically too but it was always weaker.

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Sad Kruber noises

But jokes aside - I think the guy meant that people had to put in some effort to not run out of ammo in at unapportune moment. Ranged careers also have more tools for ammo sustain at their disposal, but they still had noway near as much freedom as Javelin/Moonbow gives at the moment. This is the idea I got, at the very least.

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Idk, Sienna, waystalker and bounty never had any problems as far as i remember, and before scrounger got nerfed you could see something like shade volleybow refund pretty much all its ammo in a 3x crit.

You saw people shooting wildly back then too, in short, lots of careers and weapons never had any kind of ammo problems for one reason or another.

But that said, they did nerf that for pretty much everyone except Sienna, feels a bit…off, to exempt the two weapons all of a sudden when they for instance, hammered shade with nerfs to stop her from having easy ammo.

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Sienna is a special case in general, so I’d keep her out of the picture. (The main shtick of overheat weapons is that you can use them indefinitely as long as you manage your heat properly)
On Waystalker, I can’t say for sure since I don’t play much elf in general, but from what people said - without ammo regeneration on Ult, the ony “spam” weapon was Swiftbow, since you could just reach a golden crit ration to hold leftclick into a horde and enjoy the show (one of the rare things I got to try out myself as well xD)
An when it comes to Bounty Hunter, he HAS to show some restriction. Yes, Scrounger regenerates tons of ammo, and managing crits is not that hard, but if you go overboard and shoot your last bullet out, you risk runnin yout of options.

Wait, I just remembered, he has a talent that replenishes ammo on Elite kill. You might be right. <_>

Also. I am not entirely sure what you mean by:

I might have missed something important…

Before the present iteration of her ammo sustain she was literally just regenerating ammo along with health, it might have been a bit slower than a maxed build today but i dont recall having to stop shooting much back then either. Scrounger also had no restrictions so a few volleys into skaven horde = full ammo.

Bloodfletcher was also a lot better back then to the point where Shade could use hagbane pretty freely. The only elf that was truly mindful of ammo was handmaiden who used conservative longbow for specials.

But pre-nerf scrounger? Saltz = infinite ammo, Bardin? Ranger veteran? Always had ammo sustain to some degree even if it used weird interactions like grudgeraker getting ammo on bashes.

Present day bounty hunter? Well yes you can run outa ammo more easily…but the effort of avoiding that is about the same as a waystalker needing to aim her longbow/javelins.

I just have this memory of a griffonfoot saltz walking up to a double rotblood cata wave with 7+ maulers and tons of mobs in it and just gunning the whole heap down in almost an instant while gaining ammo(probably luck) from it . It gave me a vivid reminder of what synergy between career and weapon does.

Well the meaning was that fatshark previously nerfed Shade+volleybow ammo sustain to tune down her wild shooting on the basis of it not being right for her to do it. Then they nerfed ranged weapon traits like scrounger&conservative to tune down shooting in general…only to now much later add weapons that bypass that entirely, even on elf classes that got specifically nerfed for excess shooting before.

'Tis a strange way of doing things.

Oh, yeah, I agree, adding unlimited ammo weapons on elf made me scratch my head as well.
Especially with how good they are stat-wise.

Javelins are just stupid, when you remember that throwing axes exist and in what state they are.

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I think that´s more a case of Javelins looking much better because of how…poorly realized, the throwing axes are.

The Javs themselves to me dont really seem horribly overtuned even if one elf class got components that can make them perform over the top.

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I think Javelins need to be revisited, simply because they doo too many things too well, while also having unlimited ammo.
As far as I have seen, they perform VERY well on every elf career and that’s really concerning.

BUT!
With that said.

I don’t want Javelins being nerfed into oblivion, how Halberd was back in the day.
I think they can be powerful and have the unlimited ammo, but need to be tied to a specific niche, rather than being a perfect generalist tool.
A common arguement I hear is that they have too much cleave while being a perfect sniping tool. I would say, this needs to be addressed. Either cleaving power needs to be reduced, or the damage potential. Just so the Javelin is not a perfect answer to Sniping everything, while also thinning out a horde, and also dishing out acceptable boss damage.
Something in this cake needs to go. (Especially when we also factor in it’s ability to melee and thus take advantage of incredible finesse modifier on single targets without needing to reload)

And when it comes to Throwing Axes - they really need some attention. They don’t have to be as strong as current javelin, far from it. But making the weapon less clumsy, with faster animations and higher projectile velocity would make it a much nicer pick. The damage profile is probably fine as it is.

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We’re not talking about the original ranged meta are we? Because I have many fond memories of productively headbanging with the rest of the melee careers and only very occasionally having to yeet a special while the ranged classes soloed the map without running out of ammo or thp.

Saltz volley xbow with old scrounger too, aim into a horde if you got crits you got all your ammo back. Those were the days.

I disagree, if I see an elf with jav on any career it is rare they don’t handle absolutely every threat in the game - elites, specials, horde clear, bosses. Disgusting weapon. WS and SotT do make its ranged capabilities even stronger but it is already way too good at everything. With a halfway decent elf most threats are deleted immediately. There is no niche it doesn’t fill.

Giving throwing axes a block/push (maybe even a push attack) and rolling their ranged attacks into the one, more powerful type seems a good start. I doubt they’d be OP even then.

I also would like to be able to tap the reload key not have to hold it for the whole animation (the animation duration would stay the same).

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Exception for bountyhunter + crossbow which is as boring as hell , any gun weapons are ammos consumming, especialy the best weapons for saltz ( in term of fun ) dual pistols .

All of theses classes/weapons have not infinite ammo normaly/can’t get infinite sustained dps due to balance and downsides, only under certain circumstances : IF you have legendary perks, IF you crit, IF you score a headshot, IF you have specials to kill, IF your bar is not too high.

Javelin : No.

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You phrased the question as if you asked overall through vt2’s timeline, and in bounty hunters case he never had any kind of ammo problems up until scrounger got nerfed.

At the present? Griffonfoot doesnt seem to have ammo problems, nor does crossbow or volleycrossbow as far as i know. The ones that do are repeater (overnerfed) and BoP.

And most of those downsides are nonexistent in skilled hands on cata, also, what´s a legendary perk?

If i crit? Bounty has 100% crit chance on his next ranged hit every few seconds or after he gets a melee kill.

Headshots? Relevant for the conservative shooters but they typically have aimboosts for it with the exception of the handguns. Applies to javelins ontop of that if you dont wana spend more time reloading than throwing.

Specials? Elites? Pretty much always present on cata so a WS or Huntsman will never run out if being even slightly mindful of it. Ranger veteran just needs to remember the pouches to not run out.

None of the wizards have any problem with venting a bit then farming up some THP before using that THP as a vent buffer, rarely will there ever be enough enemies to cause a situation where she wants to shoot but cant.

If such a case occurs then javs will be out and the elf will not have time to reload either.

Javelins? By default you get 3 of them, reloads 1 at a time slowly and the base damage is low to the point where elites and specials often survive bodyshots and even headshots in extreme cases. With conservative and power investments you can get 1 per headshot back (when not bugged) and oneshot stormvermin although packmasters will still survive.

I felt this like a hammer striking deep in my soul ;-;

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Your arguments are precisely the purpose of my comment : conditions.

If you are skilled enough, if you play cata, if you play with people who take their classes to do a viable team and not full melee nor non balanced team with 3 tanks.

The problem with that type of argument is that every weapon is viable in good hands, every classes too. But let’s be real :

Cata is niche, lot of players play for fun and don’t try hard too much about an efficient team composition, lot of people play in quick play, and i bet many doesn’t even play in legendary.

Ammos efficiency for a ranged weapon is a real problem, if not, BH ( and saltzpyre for cata in general ) meta should’nt be crossbow nor arquebuse for kruber.

So yes, you could play with flail + organ guns or every crap weapons you want in cata with everybody and you could even solo this if you are a true master of the game with 2k hours. But even for real Chad its more comfortable to play rapier/crossbow for obvious reasons.

You just to have a look about some celebrities in Vermintide 2, check ChocoB in his solo run cata with the new 2h Hammer for Warrior Priest and see how he struggle vs hordes and is forced to switch in 1h hammer because the shitty dodge limit + slow animations make it bad and less comfortable.

And its exactly why javelin is dumb. It require NONE of theses conditions, you have NO real flaws, you are self suffisent.
You don’t need ranger to supply, you don’t need mate with very long range weapon to snipe from far away, you could play only javelin alternating with secondary attack and you could solo a game with no problem.

And because of this cheesy weapon, exactly like engineer class which is poorly designed like an egoist gameplay where you leech your team to rush green circles ( i kick at sight engineers in chaos waste ) you see many players play only javelin because the game allow them to not learn about the mechanics but just be autistic and spam again and again the same weapon.

I’ve about 800k hours main WHC and in no world i could ever do the half of this and just spam 99% of the time dual pistol and have the same killing potential/sustained dps because of ammos.

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While I agree with a large portion of your message, I have to point out that claiming that you kick engineers on sight in Chaos Wastes is really harmful to your argument here. Kicking people out without talking or trying to reason with them first is very rude and just makes you look like a bad person.

I agree with what you are trying to say.
I just really disagree with how you said it…
(Also, the use of the word “autistic” as a slander is probably against the forum rules, but I am not sure.)

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