Elf needs a nerf

I tested it as well and i noticed that indeed it does work, i went to check around and i couldnt find any mention of conservative shooter in the patch notes, instead, all i found was a reddit comment from 8 months ago.

That fellow stated that it used to be able to refund more than 1 ammo per shot but it was patched out to only trigger once per shot as well. Which is how i remember it working too.

But since i couldnt manage to sort through the patchnotes and find anything (too damn messy) i cant help but wonder if it not refunding more shots was just another long time bug that got fixed in recent times.

So i made a report about it and it turns out that it refunding more IS a bug :sweat_smile:

I saw that got acknowledged as bug, not sure how I feel about that

I’ve been playing since launch and have no recollection of Conservative Shooter having a proc cap. Nor could I find any mention after skimming through patch notes (Even BBB sure shot patch notes)
The May 6th reddit comment was just some guy jumbling Conservative and Scrounger together.
(Conservative didn’t have a proc cap back then either.)

Do you disagree that it really shouldn’t proc more than once?

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It does seem strange that it would be a bug when Scrounger specifically says it can only proc once while Conservative Shooter doesn’t. Generally speaking specifying max 1 proc for Scrounger would implicitly mean that the default is unlimited procs, so Conservative Shooter should have unlimited procs. Granted lots of descriptions are lacking this level of detail, but at the same time it might go back to the devs and someone says it’s actually working as intended.

I struggle to think of a weapon other than Javelin where Conservative Shooter proccing multiple times like this truly matters. Players with crossbows and handguns aren’t running out of ammo. I guess it’s relevant for Masterwork Pistol spamming? Volley Crossbow on non-BH?

EDIT: Incidentally, anyone want to test whether inspirational shot can proc multiple times for a laugh?

Currently? I think it’s fine and is only mildly imbalancing in the case of javelin because of too much penetration which is the real problem to fix by ~25-33% nerf.

Ideally? I think all sources of ammo should be nerfed significantly to the point where even BH/WS/Huntsman/Ranger have to ration their ammo constantly and infinite ammo weapons should in general be nerfed to a vast degree. Right now ammo is virtually a non-issue for groups and there’s usually a maximum of 1 person in a group who needs refills on the map because everyone else has infinite or effectively infinite ammo. Javelin and Moonbow epitomize this balance problem since they can be spammed forever and kill everything at range, but there’s plenty of weapons and classes doing the same thing almost as well.


@alsozara More like it functioned as 1 proc per headshot rather than 1 proc per shot for as long as I can remember so I’m genuinely surprised it got acknowledged as a bug.

Can’t really comment on Conservative balance, the proc cap doesn’t seem like a big issue for now outside of Javelin and even then Javelin ammo capacity bottle necks it to some degree.

Not too bothered if it gets changed so long as Waste Not, Want Not remains intact or is compensated.


I’ve also played since launch, and yeah i also remember it not being capped initially, but, at some point during the ebbing and flowing of nerfs to slowly tune down ranged weapons it was definitely patched.

…I cant remember when exactly, but i think it was before WoM at least since it was around for long enough for me to take it for granted.

It was rare until javelins were added because they cleave like the bolt staff and are arrows (so hitbox priority is more generous). The trollhammer can make good of this hitbox placement too but it will stop after 2 gors/marauders iirc since it ‘only’ has handgun cleave (about 1/3 what javelins have).

The interaction is rare with other weapons and hardly feels unfair there.

I sometimes kind of like it proccing per headshot on Huntsman but on everyone else it should be one per shot imo.


I make an exception for HS passive cause, y’know it’s a class passive. I’m fine with it being better than a weapon trait.


From a balance perspective, its probably fine for huntsman to keep it since he dosent have much other ammo sustain.

From a more “fun” oriented perspective, its as @alsozara states, fine for him to keep it on the basis of it being a passive, a unique class component.

Meanwhile for a longbow elf removing it should hardly be noticeable at all…a javelin elf? Javelin elf can eat a small nerf or two and still be fine.


I don’t think the problem is that elf is OP, the problem mainly stems from DLC ranged weapons like javelins and moonfire.

Of course, the fact they are superior weapons should just make them more of an asset to the team. The problem is most DPS players will be playing competitively and going for the most kills. All DPS classes suffer from being used to trying to kill everything you’re attacking before you kill it, instead of focusing on what’s threatening the team.

More often than not, I get a bounty hunter or elf player that will ignore every elite or special, except the ones I’m attacking, just to try to get all of them. This competitive playstyle simply ruins teamplay. Most of the most fun games involve a team of non-dps classes.

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Its a 50/50 really, if the user does use the strong talents then yes, even the careers count as overpowered with the debatable exception of Handmaiden, with or without moonfire/javs.

Now this is a more in general problem that appears anywhere, in a similar vein i often see trollhammer dwarves instantly pop out the cannon and blast away at any CW or elite pair. Neverminding the fact that the Dwarf’s teammates are already in melee with the intended targets.

That doesnt mean that it isnt true that there are serious design and/or balance issue´s with the elf´s kits and some of her weapons in general though.

You can also flip this around where you only need to see one of those players who actually has the brains and foresight to use those weapons/talents effectively and essentially you are playing solo simulation at this point.
Yeah not everything about elf is necessarily overpowered and even SoTT can arguably be played in a way that makes her look “balanced” but really those are in the minority.

Also as frosty discussed above, this is not exclusive problem to these careers.

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Sure, the problem of competitive kill-focused playstyles does extend to other players, but it’s not nearly as much a problem as it is on DPS players. I think that kind of player is what agitates players more, and results in talks about OP meta. Having OP DPS stuff is allowing for more players with that kind of playstyle to succeed without any kind of team play.

Is there even a consensus on which talents are broken? Can we put forward here a comprehensive list of which talents are broken that wouldn’t be any more contentious than the idea that moonfire and javelins are OP?

I dont think anyone actually disagree´s that MB&javs got some issue’s, its just that nobody’s quite sure how to actually go about fixin’ em which is what sparks discussion.

As for a consensus regarding borked talents, well yes? There are some really clear cut offenders being straight up overpowered that have seen a lot of mentions…and theres a notable bunch that´s on the opposite side of the spectrum too.

The type everyone&anyone knows to be useless/too weak or even nonfunctional at worst, they also get a fair share of honorable mentions here or there.

I don’t really see how this is a problem specific to any class. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen a Foot Soldier end up with red ammo 10% into a map after shooting right over my shoulder to get the last hit in every stormvermin they can. Then they greedily take every ammo drop in the map.

At the same time, you can easily top the scoreboard 90% of the time as any class unless you are playing with the top 1% of players.

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I’m just gonna have to disagree. Any class can top the scoreboard, but it’s more like when you’re playing with the bottom 25% of players. Most of the time, it takes someone in the top 10% to outdo a decent DPS player. It’s hard for me to imagine your experience is much different without questioning your integrity.

I’m a little behind on the discussion. When it comes to talents, I’m well aware there are some that are just useless or inferior in almost every situation. Which elf talents are the main meta offenders when it comes to being overpowered; the top 5?

Perhaps I should rephrase myself: Anyone substantially better than someone else will virtually always top the scoreboard regardless of class. This holds until you get to the very highest of the skill levels with players who can reasonably be expected to solo the difficulty you’re playing at.

Of course, the difference is that if you are playing an “OP” class then you generally end up doubling or tripling the number of kills and damage inflicted compared to the #2 player, while if you are playing a “weak” DPS class then you might only get 50% more.

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Waystalker: Bloodshot, her ult in general (having two talents that make it recharge faster and another that gives it 33% more damage synergizes with this, and bloodshot makes it 2x as powerful), hagbane bow
Handmaiden: Just a lot of damage/attackspeed/crit buffs. I barely play her though because I find playing what is basically a class with a bunch of passives to be boring. Not sure whether she ranks as overpowered.
Shade: Cloak of Mists and overall synergy with crits
SotT: Her ult spam damage + radiance.