The bodyshot damage on a unarmored dummy is like 63 if i dont remember it wrongly, even with bloodshot you wont be doing so much damage to a armor on bodyshots as far as i know.
Killing monks? Monks are weak AF to arrows, they melt to longbow, melt to swiftbow and melt to javs too.
I know i´ve killed 4 or even more in a double crit multi headshots on em when they were running in a row. Killing em with keri´s weapons really isnt a feat at all.
KR isnt lame, it´s terrible design.
I’ve tried and it works pretty well if you got the aim and the energy to do it, but no wonder really since the talent itself is such a complete package really. But i prefer it with moonbow as it feels like it overlaps a bit with the javelins somehow.
I found myself in tight spots during sudden or elite/special rich hordes due to that slowpoke reload speed, specially when i needed several throws to settle a problem.
All these grail knights, slayers and priests, i love em but i gotta work hard for em.
What i wanted to convey was that for someone who does that and can do it well it might be a tad bit overpowered when combined with an infinte ammo scheme. The ammo lasts well enough that you can shoot every elite in sight and even bodyshot normal mobs for padding stats if no one else takes them first.
Correct, it’s a high-skill weapon where you need headshots (both for reloading with conservative shooter and for damage). It’s around 52 damage on bodyshot and 93 on headshot for stormvermin with my setup w/o bloodshot.
Longbow is comparable in single target damage. Problem is longbow only pierces enough to hit 2 monks while javelin pierces to 4. And sure, you might not always line up 4 monks, but you’ll constantly have 2 monks + lots of other trash in the way sucking up your arrows. Longbow can only pierce enough to get through 1 clan rat on cata, Javelin can go through 6 and still hit something important. It’s that penetration that you’re after.
Swiftbow is Swiftbow. If you’re using it you’re not getting Javelin’s impressive anti-armor capability. I can definitely say that javelin replicates swiftbow’s ability to mow down lines of trash if you hit headshots. sometimes better, in fact, because you can take out armored units and stagger any elite while mowing down the horde.
I agree. I think the bigger problem with Moonbow atm is that is requires very little skill or attention to use well. If the best weapons also require the most skill (constant headshots, knowing when to reload), then that’s good balance even if it’s a little overpowered.
Piercing shot, while good, fails hard as soon as you miss and it doesn’t even have the stagger of BH’s Ult that lets him stunlock enemies in exploitable animations.
To make you restful I can say that in a dense fight on cata and above you need high aiming skill, because you cant afford to miss a shot. At least if you dont have two other ranged in team with high aiming skill which care for specials too.
Nah that’s bs.
If I run moonbow I turn my brain off.
Point and click, no charge, no aim, whatever is hit is dead. Literally braindead and no effort needed.
I find the aoe to be smaller than what the clouds would make you believe, and there isn’t really a point in shooting hordes of slaverats.
You’ve got more than enough charge to kill specials, elites and fire at shields in a horde comfortably.
Needing to hit body shot isn’t high skill. Moonbow is way better at recovering after a miss while swamped by enemies than, say, a handgun is. Good luck getting a moment to reload that.
MB only really suffers vs mass specials and other threats, e.g. twitch or Convocation of Decay ending, where good aim with LB will let you delete more enemies in a short space. Other than that MB is amazing at it all.
If FS don’t want to nerf its damage and take away from its identity as an absolute chonker imho they should make the recharge even slower, half what it is now or even worse if that doesn’t do it, to the point where not outputting as many shots will hurt in normal situations, not just extremes like I mentioned above.
As it stands now in most situations you can weave in and out of MB and melee without the recharge getting in the way, the one downside it has isn’t big enough.
Yeah. I wanted it to be more of a melee Career unlimited ammo bow, which isn’t as strong as Long Bow, but it’s just crazy.
Fatshark should consider the fact that it’s only really worth taking Hunter on it, which means it has 25% more Power. I want it to be a Hunter procing weapon for Melee Careers, rather than making using the Bow more useful than a Melee Weapon.
Even on Cata you can clear half of the Elites from miles away.
Changed my mind a bit on Jav too. It can be broken af on SoTT.
Maybe it’s just SotT’s guaranteed crits that I feel this way but Jav has disgusting cleave (and stagger), I frequently see Kerillians clear entire waves with it almost as good as a Flamethrower or Griffonfoot, but unlike those two it can chunk multiple armoured elites like CWs fairly fast too. I honestly don’t enjoy playing alongside it, which is not how I feel around MB (even though MB is imbalanced as it is - and the FF is horrendous too). Javs do everything.
I’d like to see Throwing Axes get reworked to have melee on left click too (or move right click to left and give them block), but imo Javs are the ranged weapon most in need of a nerf. MWP could use a huge monster damage reduction too but they at least don’t handle CWs in anywhere near the level Javs can, I’m almost tempted to say they just give MWP rightclick mode a huge damage penalty vs bosses specifically (e.g. -50%, maybe more if really needed). Even on OE with the crit talent it does pretty substantial damage, even if not quite as much as RV. Hell, it even works on IB to chunk down bosses and he doesn’t really offer much to the weapon.
Crits don’t increase cleave. It’s just the Jav killing waves, nothing to do with Doomsight. SoTT kills 7 clanrats (at least with my weapon setup) whether a crit or not. This is where WS makes the weapon stupidly good because bloodshot means she instead kills 14.
SotTs using Doomsight/Jav are taking advantage of the huge damage they can do to bosses/monsters/CWs with guaranteed crits/headshots/possible radiant inheritance. It’s honestly not that strong on its own, but it’s in addition to having just double ulted on that boss/monster/CW patrol. And if you purple pot then you’re getting 21-24 crits stacked up
I gotta highlight that while this is doable and happens often enough to be noticeable it does take all those clanrats running in a row without any shields or armor AND the WS having bloodshot active at the time. And that it will only last for 1 “shot” at a time.
Its powerful when it occurs but its not an unconditional a free win card that always works.
True, but shotguns also get stopped by shields and drakegun doesn’t even really have the range to hit that much more of a horde in a line oftentimes. Vs. armor the javelins actually deal significant damage while both shotguns and drakegun just get nothing. In fact, the best damage you can get using javelin is to have it go through 6 clan rats and then 7th target hit is a Stormvermin. And unlike shotgun you can take advantage of Conservative Shooter to reliably keep throwing forever.
Indeed javs to have higher penetrative power, but its more linear and slower to reload and use once enemies are actually in melee range. The conservative shooter schtick is doable but i suspect that the wast majority of the playerbase cant actually do it so well that they dont end up reloading often enough.
Even the best among us seem to tether around 60-70% unless the fellow i´ve in mind has improved since he last checked&shared. But he runs modded difficulties solo for the challenge of it so he´s not a good stick to measure the average player with by any means.
Shotguns & the drakeguns may have some limitations but they are what i´d consider easy to use in return with almost no aiming requirements beyond “Close enough&in their direction”.
#1 headshotting a line of enemies facing you and moving right at you is the 2nd easiest thing in the world next to headshotting an already stunlocked monster to death with BH’s double shotted. How often do you see BH’s mess up a double shotted chain after they hit their first one? Pretty dang low chance, because it’s an easy target facing the player and not moving side to side. It’s not a 60-70% hit rate, probably more like 90-95% for good BHs. That’s closer to the situation we’re talking about. We’re not talking about standard combat with an enemy moving their head around performing attack animations, nor specials barely visible at long range. A line of enemies moving towards you is fairly simply to aim at.
#2 Conservative shooter can refund multiple times on multiple headshots for penetrating weapons. Which… javelins specialize in. Even a single throw can refund all 6 javelins for WS.
#3 Especially with Bloodshot (which adds a 2nd javelin aimed slightly below your thrown one), you end up with a vertical line attack that has a very large effective hitbox that falls as it travels. This means that as long as your horizontal aim is accurate your vertical aim just needs to be within about 1-2 heads above the target at the front of a horde to start hitting headshots.
#4 Even if you have to reload it’s not the end of the world. Reload for Javelin is noticeably quicker than most shotguns. Of course Griffonfoot and Grudgeraker reload 2 at once, but the overall reload rate isn’t too far in their favor (rip blunderbuss btw).
Now, is it more difficult than griffonfoot BH? Yeah, sure. But as a weapon in a vacuum I’d say it’s one of the most effective shotgun-like attacks in the game. Griffonfoot only works so well on BH because he buffs it in so many ways and has unlimited ammo. I’d argue that Grudge-raker is ammo starved even on Ranger with Grungni’s Cunning. Meanwhile Javelin has infinite ammo on all elf classes, destroys armored enemies even if they are in hordes, staggers everything (maulers floored, heavy stagger on berzerkers and CWs, no shotgun does this), can deal with specials even at long range, and merely has some instances of needing to reload (at a fairly reasonable reload time) on non-WS classes. If Javelin was available for all classes I’d say that it’s a strong pick as almost everyone.
If enemies are close enough to start running attacks or whatnot then javs really are not much help and instead, get difficult to use.
They patched that ages ago as far as i know.
What they can do however, is refund even if you dont initially headshot, but, if enemies are running in a line and you dont headshot the first one…
Bloodshot throws do not provide more ammo refunds if i am not mistaken but i could be wrong about this.
I specified that you reload one at a time for a reason, shotguns generally got clip reloads and their users often got reload boosts.
Cant say i share that sentiment having played it a lot but its a question of playstyle i suppose.
All sniping weapons does this, i think even most of Sienna´s staves can seriously dent if not outright toast em quickly horde or not too. At least a few can…but that said, the stagger is over the top, especially on chaos warriors or targets beyond the first unarmored elites.
As for stagger on monks, doesnt shotguns usually one or twoshot even stacked monksif built right? Griffonfoot even melts stacked maulers at a speed that puts javelins to shame.
Well no argument against that, weapon is definitely a solid package unto itself and would be considered to be useable as long as it does the following :
Special sniping
No-cost reloads.
Minimal extra stuff.
However if it was tuned to such a state then it´d basically just be another flavor of handgun/longbow which is an idea i absolutely do not like at all.
Just tested Into the Nest, sat at the bridge after the 1st book and waited for a skaven horde. You can absolutely refill multiple javelins with a single throw if you get multiple headshots. In fact it’s almost impossible not to full refill once or twice if you are even try to line up with the horde of heads. I can also confirm that bloodshot works with conservative shooter, I can get 2 refunds headshotting the same dummy in the keep.
Conservative shooter does work with shotguns, but it only works on 1 pellet (I believe the one dead center of the crosshair). I’m not sure if this is because they are multi-shot weapons or because they are hitscan weapons. The problem with them though is that the other pellets commonly kill units before the conservative shooter-worthy pellet hits them in the head, meaning even if you would have scored headshots you commonly won’t. But you CAN get multiple ammo refills on them in a single shot.
Uhh… not really? By “in the horde” I mean “goes through multiple horde enemies to still kill or floor elites or specials”, the purpose being to be able to cover teammates or shoot through to get something like a packmaster or gunner. Handgun (slow as hell to reload) can go through… 2 clan rats and still hit something. Charged manbow (relatively slow), also 2 clan rats. The only weapons that’d I’d say are comparable in having both penetration and AP damage/stagger are Gromril Engineer and fully charged bolt staff sienna. Both of which have huge issues being used quickly and safely in CQC.
True, and as I said not much can compare to griffonfoots (though they run out of ammo immediately if you spam them as a non-BH). Javs get berserkers in two, or one headshot. Which, if you’re comparing BH to WS means that the WS should have bloodshot ready so they can effectively get a line of berserkers in one bodyshot throw. Jav does take 3 for maulers though, and because of the head armor thing all you can do is throw at the body. The way it completely floors them is pretty great though, almost nothing does that. I’d actually be interested if anyone knew what could, I know unchained w/ flail can but I don’t know of another weapon with enough stagger.
Then i suspect its bugged, i am 99% sure this was patched for other weapons like longbows&crossbows before.
Well in the context of a any horde with its own faction specials, for instance skaven&packmasters or beastmen&banners.
Its probably just me but i have a gripe with people seemingly suggesting that bloodshot is up on every single shot, like nah, that thing isnt generally up all the time if you arent actually permanently running ahead and deliberately going into melee.
To me that seems like an extremely strange way to play waystalker of all classes like…why play her at all if you´re gona sit in melee constantly?
Some shields can be built into knocking them over i am fairly sure, and i wouldnt be surprised if warrior priest could manage on a few of his weapons as well. Possibly the 2handed hammers in general on second thought.
Just tested and it worked with Manbow, Saltz crossbow and Dwarf handgun. But they penetrate far fewer targets as I’ve mentioned, so in practice it would be incredibly rare to get more than 2 headshots since you are only hitting 3ish targets max. They also generally don’t have much ammo problems to begin with so you might not even notice getting 2 shots back unless you were staring right at your ammo counter the whole time.
Are you sure you aren’t thinking of Scrounger? It specifically says “can only trigger once per attack”.
I sit in melee with her most of the time. Same way you play Bounty Hunter, get a kill->shoot->repeat. I play most classes the same really, say with Huntsman where I go spear and shield and once I get into melee I push, swap to repeater and do 1-2 quick shots before meleeing more. The only ranged weapons I wouldn’t do this with is something like swiftbow/drakegun. Even with hagbane I’d shoot a double shot at the biggest mass of units->kill a straggler->repeat. Waystalker is a perfectly serviceable melee class thanks to Assassin even if she’s a few % below the competition.
I don’t assume bloodshot is always up, but if you aren’t in melee then throwing an extra javelin and reloading if you don’t get a headshot isn’t really a big deal, right? No one is afraid of a bunch of plague monks running at you from long range like they are lancelot from monty python and the holy grail and you can just casually laugh at them. The danger is when you are already in melee and hear the noise that they are coming. So yes, I’ll assume bloodshot is up because the alternative is actually easier.
