So imho the short conclusion is:
- HM is fine.
- WS and Sister need some nerfs/Talent adjustments.
- Shade falls behind the other classes and need some adjustments (no nerfs) too.
I need to see video evidence of this so much. My own Waystalker games I’ve just found moonbow incomparable in the realm of killing the things that i really want dead
Its simple logic really.
In a environment where enemies are steadily coming in you´ll quickly hit the bottom of the moonfire energy bar and enter the downtime and thus only able to shoot one more shot again 4 seconds later if you do not let it charge further.
Hagbane doesnt hit that bottleneck in waystalker hands, you do not have to hold it for specials or elites but can instead just shoot at everything which means that the lower damage per shot gets cancelled out very quickly…on the basis that there are actually enough enemies around.
So sure, in a more sparse run with just fewer elites around you´ll get notably easier mileage from moonbow than hagbane, but that goes for longbow vs hagbane at that point too though.
It´s kinda similar to Krubers greatsword in some senses here.
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Shade doesn’t fall behind the other classes - she might be the worst elf, though that’s debatable, but she’s still overall very strong. Her playstyle has changed, but she’s only a bit weaker than the former Shade.
Her CoM is still a better version of WHC’s Fervency : 10s invisibility + pass through enemies for safety followed by 100% crit steroid for 4 seconds on a 33s base cooldown VS. knockback for safety and 100% crit for 6 seconds on a 90s base cd.
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Shade is absolutely not weak by any means, at all, she’s still one of the strongest classes in the game
she’s just bland and rather boring atm is all.
just to clarify, has anyone actually tested this or?
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Not tested tested, but I’ve played around quite a bit with hagbane WS to test @Frostysir’s claim out : it is really spammy, even on lower difficulties it does feel better to me than Moonbow - though Moonbow evidently stays better for Elites and special killing. But then again you’re WS and press F to outplay bothersome elites and specials so…
I do agree with him on that, based on empirical experience and not thorough experimentation.
Edit : this is if you’re playing in the mindset of using your ranged weapon over melee ; of course if you’re playing the game ‘as intended’ or at least as I think it is intended to be played, namely with a focus on melee, Moonbow remains the better option.
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Err …not sure what qualifies as a proper test but i’ve played waystalker a heap with all her weapons in rotations.
The most understandable explanation i can cook up on the fly is that hagbane is kinda like Krubers greatsword, it´s not the best or even particularly good at all with output against lower density and enemy supply. But, once the enemies start being dense and appear frequently the output spikes hard with no real downtime.
Moonbow spikes hard in short bursts but the downtimes you get from shooting like 3 specials and a couple of elites mean you dont get to shoot at hordes or multiple new targets rapidly. Hagbane meanwhile just shoots at everything nonstop.
So, like mod realm?
Again, I never see this in my own games. I even run out of ammo, especially on bosses. Where as energy just comes back. Run bloodshot and maximize melee to ranged attacks against high health enemies. Can even use the ult more freely instead of being conservative with it for that ammo return.
Where is the OP hagstalker I hear so much about?
(No joke, I feel exactly the same about Kruber’s greatsword versus Saltzpyre. Where is all the damage supposed to come from on Kruber when WHC just obliterates the enemies i want to when I want to)
Sometimes normal cata campaign, weeklies/deeds, but also chaos wastes post some level of weapon upgrades.
To be honest the monster damage is not anything incredible without a strength potion, and indeed, you do need to have a near full tank of ammo when you start on them for it to shine. But other than on those you should never really run outa ammo, at least i do not.
Krubers greatsword is the more extreme case, i also think it needs a bit of a buff so it works better even in more ordinary modes. But its not that it does a ton of damage towards each enemy it hits, it just hits a ton of enemies.
I play Merc with GS on Legend difficulty and it works more than fine. It’s not because it scales really well into density that it needs that density to shine.
Same goes for hagbane, though it’s not even a question of density. You can almost continuously spam it and use ult to replenish the ammo for an almost permanent uptime.
I mean, Moonbow just shoots 3 charged or 6 uncharged shots and then is down for the rest of the fight. Unless you have a GS FK, GS Zealot and a 1H Hammer IB as teammates, the monster’ll be dead by the time you can shoot him again.
And with it, it’s amazing. You don’t need anywhere near a full quiver to kill a Cata Roger with Shrapnel and a Str pot.
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Man, I still don’t see it. I ran several maps today as hagstalker, tried to be as spammy as possible without ruining rando’s lives with friendly fire. All the meta and s&d. Never broke 20k damage. Casually run spear and moonbow and went 22k without feeling like I was working for it, which feels consistent.
I’m not saying that to be needlessly contrarian, I just don’t get where the OP hagbane is supposed to come from in a normal vanilla cata QP? Do I just shoot my team like it’s going out of style during hordes? Do you play with a group who literally just sits back to let you play alone? I get damage inflation with horde clear weapons is a thing, you can see it all the time with anyone running a flamethrower or a shotgun. Is that all there is to hagbane?
Both Merc and FK get a large amount of raw power to work with, so it’s not just the damage it’s the level of control you also get. Sure WHC can probably do more damage courtesy of headshot crits and flense, but he’s going to be much much less safe while doing it, and have a fraction of the CC. At least that’s my experience with playing GS WHC vs GS FK/Merc (though to be clear I’ve spent by far the most time with GS FK).
Similar to what I was saying about GS, it’s not just a matter of damage, but also of control. The uptime, very high stagger, and AoE of hagbane lets you control high density very easily, and even run something like dual daggers to cover your relative CW weakness since hagbane can handle density and clear around elites on its own very comfortably.
TBF hagbane was way more ridiculous back when it also regenerated your ult at an absurd rate, and wasn’t being compared to some of the more recent absurd stuff, but on WS it’s still an extremely versatile weapon that combines pretty great damage with extreme levels of control, with basically no downside thanks to WS’s ammo generation.
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I’ve played all bows on Waystalker Cataclysm recently and I can tell you that Moonbow uptime is sufficient for almost every special, armored unit, and the occasional arrow into a horde. It is a bad choice for monsters, patrols, or events that throw multiple specials in quick succession (like Righteous Stand dropping 6 Gasrats, 4 gunners, and 4 blightstormers in a 30 second window). Basically moonbow sucks under pressure. It’s a win more weapon on waystalker. Bloodshot doubles the damage, but it already kills every special in one shot. Pick hagbane for more consistent damage and amazing stagger, or longbow for massive damage minus the stagger. Forget swiftbow imo, as the horde density on cata means damage of hagbane is going to out damage the swiftbow.
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I actually just whole heartedly disagree with
I don’t get it. I don’t see what you guys mean at all. It does bonkers damage that lasts forever. One arrow a Stormvermin/Mauler/special. Ult refunds moonbow charge when it probably really shouldn’t. And the small AOE radius means you can shoot at anything without hitting randos.
Am I not supposed to melee? Is that the difference here?
I guess ranged stagger is a thing? I’ve seen hag knock ratling guns and flamers around. But stagger/control ≠ damage or shield users would be the highest dps in the game.
I just want to say again, I’m not just arguing for the sake of it. I just want to know what I’m doing that’s so different from the “I always top damage using the hag/GS” crowd.
Yeah I’ve yet to manage to understand myself how hagbane and moonfire are even comparable, even in the specific example of Waystalker with Kurnuous’ Reward. The resulting hagbane spam is just an accident brought forth from poor career design. It really isn’t in the same realm of absurd as moonfire spam though.
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Moonbow pros:
- powerful against chaos warriors
- lets you take loaded bow to make your overpowered ult +33% more overpowered
- allows you to save your ult for more clutch situations rather than use it constantly to gain ammo
- way better at sucking up all the kills when roaming levels (not really a pro, but it inflates your end game stats and is probably a big reason why it’s so hated since everyone elseis just along for the ride until a patrol or horde).
Hagbane pros:
- kills everything below chaos warriors just as fast as moonbow. It takes 2 shots to kill what Moonbow would in 1, or 3 vs. 2, but its faster firing anyway
- stunlocks whole groups of anything below chaos warriors.
- with strength potion, deletes monsters from long range very consistently. This is the best way to do it since you’ll almost never have to worry about aggro or pathing leading to the monster being unhittable like you do for melee.
- with strength potion, stunlocks chaos warriors in a small AoE out of everything but overheads and kills them in 4 shots (cata). Think you can get 3 shots if you stack damage vs. chaos but vs. skaven is usually better.
IMO hagbane is superior in tackling the actual hard parts of the game. Moonbow’s only advantage when the going actually gets tough is the much better ulting. Though I have recently gotten used to using bloodshot a lot more with moonbow and specifically turning my view at the right time to nuke two separate groups. It doesn’t compare to being able to dumpster CW patrols or monsters with strength pot, or stun wide AoEs of hordes with stormvermin/raiders/berzerkers in them.
Moonbow is absurdly powerful at lower difficulties though, because “kills an elite/special every 5s” goes from being useful to killing every elite/special that the game spawns.
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It doesn’t though ? I just tried it and I don’t think it does…
This is true. Also actually, though you can spam hagbane almost brainlessly, it’s in practice quite the same with moonbow. Just did a Fort Breambridge run in legend to see if ult refunded charge and I never ran out of charge all while preventing my teammates from playing the game.
It does with Kurnous’ Reward. Don’t think it’s worth it over loaded bow.
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If loaded bow + bloodshot is here to stay…Hopefully not. Makes Sienna’s single slow projectile that can’t even kill cata sorcerers look even worse.
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On one hand we’re obviously talking about Kurnous’, on the other I might have brainlessly loaded my Moonbow setup in which I’m running loaded bow…
