Elf needs a nerf

Doesn’t need crits or headshots to heavy stagger Chaos warriors; same as throwing axes just needs around 7% power.

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The only word that comes to mind at this point when thinking about broken stuff, by “broken” meaning that you xD the game by simply existing, is “elf”. Probably “masterwork pistol” deserves the same mentioning, but at least the careers to which it is attached do require some skill to be played effectively.

Which weapons have we gotten over this last year?

Moonfire. (very OP)
Javelin (slightly OP)
Coruscation staff. (Quite OP.)
Trollhammer (slightly OP)
Spear&shield. (Not OP)
Griffonfoot (Bounty hunter makes em OP)

Bretty sword
Bretty shield. (Neither is OP.)

Masterwork pistol (Very OP)
Coghammer ( Was OP)

These are about it, right? The ones before were fire flail (Still OP), bill hook (used to be OP), tuskgor spear (used to be OP), throwing axes, elf spear&shield.

Well overall i think there´s a strong trend of new weapons being and even remaining overpowered or at least very strong.

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Nothing you mentioned aside of the elf weapons and mwp completely and systematically dunks on the game regardless of context. Some of them are extremely situational and rely on a very particular career or build to perform in a manner that you may even begin to consider overtuned. In that case it can be more of a career design problem than a weapon problem. I don’t think weapons should xD the game just by clicking in a general direction, but they shouldn’t be wet noodles either. I find most of them to be in a very acceptable spot. Amusingly enough, you tag Javs only as “slightly” OP, in spite of them being a better melee weapon that a good deal of the melee weapons currently in the game lol.

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Javelin is context dependent too though? The only thing that really stands out on it is stagger and cleave, both which are context based to show anything.

And i mean, sure, you can say that griffonfoot isnt overpowered since it´s build dependent…but then you’ve effectively stated that hagbane is not overpowered as well. Sorry but i will not support that, if there is a build/careers that enables it to go way beyond what´s reasonable then it’s overpowered.

And what the heck was situationally overpowered about pre nerf coghammer, bill hook and tuskgor spears? These weapons were just flat overpowered in melee before nerfs. You could give em to a wildly swinging monkey and they´d demolish everything around with em.

Similarly coruscation staff…it doesnt take a genius to drop a few firegouts here and there during a fight and just rake up tons of damage. You can even throw down a few then pull out a melee weapon and fight ontop em, just watch all that free damage for barely any effort!

Just because they arent moonfire/MWP levels of overpowered doesnt mean they arent overpowered.

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I don’t think it is that strong. I mean, it is a nice reserve of bombs but the reload time is quite prohibiting in clutch situations, and it isn’t very easy to aim at specials. The one time I thought it was very strong was with the reload speed on ammo pickup boon in the Chaos Wastes, next to an ammo box and against a monster. The FF is also quite a drawback.

So does Zealot, but he has less ammo sustain. The fact that they can be spammed by a BH with no counterpoint is absolutely boring, including for other players. And for people complaining about “being robbed of THP during hordes” by the Blunderbuss, they must absolutely hate the GF.

I think the Bretsword is very strong, but I don’t think it’s over the top. I really like the block on heavies gimmick, the moveset is very versatile and allows for dealing with most if not all situations, if anything it shadows the Halberd a bit - at least so long as Halberd’s heavies aren’t fixed.

Has anything changed on the Coghammer since release ? To me it still is the best of both worlds with 2H Hammer heavies on lights and Warpick uncharged heavies on heavies. Coghammer’s lights are fine as they have less damage and cleave than 2H Hammer heavies ; but the heavies are really strong, being warpick’s uncharged heavies with ~70% more armour damage.

You could add Mace and Sword though I’m not that big of a fan.
You also forgot the Deepwood staff which is not OP per se (though there is a weird interaction between crits, bleed on crits and the multiple projectiles - one left click with the staff consumes one stack of Morai-Heg’s doomsight but applies 4 bleeds…) but that has a very, very strong right click. I think it should cost more ‘overheat’ than it currently does, and its overheat system is objectively better than all of Sienna’s, with no drawback.

I’ve grown to hate the elf. I used ot think WS’s ult was stupid but now combined with everything else it’s just blown out of proportions…

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When was Coghammer nerfed?

I would argue that Fire Flail was quite balanced before the last BBB and its “fix”. Right now, it is kinda devastating, especially on Unchained. Although the latter has more to do with the passive stagger buff and less with the weapon.

I would argue that it has to much ammo. Combine this with its ability to gain ammo traits and you can spam it quite often. Personally, I would like to see it with slightly less ammo and without the ability to use Scrounger and Conservative Shooter. Also no ammo for it on ammo box. It is still strong but it becomes more of a tactical weapon instead of a spam-a-rama.

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Just played a Cata Twitch game alongside a moonfire WS and she got easily 30k more damage than the closes second place.

Wiping out a massive chunk of a pack of 20+ plague monks with her ult and so on. Trivialising content at Catach Twitch (Arguably the hardest official setting bar adding a deed or weekly on top) and the rest of the game below Cata becomes absolutely boring.

Poor Grail knight running around was basically like some kind of slow pingpong ball bouncing around in the hope of actually killing something only to watch them die in the burning naimation for a shot the WS fired 30 seconds ago. Not fun.

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I watched an IB with it walk up to a SV patrol, bash the shields once or twice, taunt, then pull it out and blast about about 80% of them dead instantly.

So like javelin its context dependent but can be a bit over the top, likely less generally so but still notably.

Zealot just runs out and then that´s the end of it, i do not think most people mind that all too much. But the infinite shooting schemes of BH + their innate capabilities end up being a mix that is too much.

Hence i stated neither is OP as you even quoted : P

I am nearly positively sure it got some manner of nerf, what it was i cant recall though.

Right i forgot about those…i do not recall their balance history either x)

…Yep i did, definitely did. My bad.

I like the javelins too much and more or less tossed the staff out of my mind after i got done with the challenges.

I´ve always felt her ability by itself was rather mediocre and boring and heck, the lock on system just flat out fails at times…but even so, this blood shot bug synergy is something that should have been fixed much sooner.

Didnt it get a nerf pretty quickly after release? At least i seem to recall something about that.

Suddenly i am unsure, might have gotten it mixed up with another.

UC is the one pushing to madness but cant any sienna career take it and more or less stunlock a SV patrol half to death?

I agree with that. Either less ammo or no ammo pickups, the latter would make it a very interesting option. Perhaps being able to reload it with your held bomb ?

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It outperforms every other sniper weapon in the game (handgun, bolt, x/longbow) in terms of damage and rate of fire regardless of elf career while also smashing monsters and skewering hordes both in melee and range. Easily the second best ranged weapon in the game, second only to moonfire bow and leagues beyond everything else that is available.

Hagbane isn’t overpowered at all. Rather it’s a design flaw of the waystalker that’s been around since WoM. If you’d rework Waystalker such that people aren’t pidgeon-holed into Kurnous’ Reward for ammo sustain, the OP-ness of the hagbane would suddenly vanish. I think it would be enough to bring back in some form the old Scavenger trait on her melee weapons.

Coghammer was never touched, to my recollection. Billhook eats stamina with the special attack, but that’s only a problem on BH where the weapon doesn’t work anyway. iirc the tuskgor’s spear stagger power has been nerfed slightly, but it’s still one of the very best melee weapons for Kruber.

That isn’t really as impactful as you would imagine. At least it’s a staff that has personality to it, as the vanilla ones are pretty bland. If I’d touch anything about it, it’s the effectiveness of the left click at long range, but that would be true for all the shotguns in this game.

Outperforms handgun : sure ; outperforms longbow and xbow : I disagree. Attack speed and damage are on par, it has less continuous damage because of the reload betweern bursts of shots, but more overall sustain due to no ammo. The fact that it has no ammo limit and no drawbacks to spamming them allows players to be way less conservative about them, which kind of defeats the melee oriented rest of the game.

I’d clarify how the alt fire works, because currently I understand nothing of how the tornado does damage. See threads about synergies with famished flames and all, it is a mess…

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More or less. But as said that is the result of the “fix”. Before the Heavy 1 explosion was mostly a visual effect. Now it actually explodes creating this large stagger effect. So as said, before the last BBB it was actually quite balanced. Better as now at least.

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Granted, I only played it briefly on bw. Most of my experience is on Pyro as the one staff that isn’t obnoxious to use on her. You certainly get something out of Heat Sink, but I don’t think it falls into any definition of “OP”. On bw with FF I don’t see it’s point when beam staff exists, which again is mostly a problem about how the class is designed, rather than the weapons themselves.

Thing is, it doesn’t really matter too much how many overpowered weapons there are. Cause when there’s at least one, that’s all you’re going to be seeing in matches.

For example, I literally can’t remember the last time I’ve seen HM or Shade use anything but Moonfire Bow. Sure, there’s other, non-overpowered options like non-WS Hagbane, longbow and swiftbow, but those weapons might as well not exist now.

Most of the elfs I’ve been seeing have been SotT with sword & dagger + whatever flavour of ranged weapon they want, ranging from Moonfire to Javelins to Staff (all of which are at least situationally overpowered).

A weapon doesn’t have to be universally overpowered either to mess with balance. Take Griffon Pistols as an example. Worse range and higher spread, but they’re the best shotgun in the game for clearing hordes by a fair bit. They hyper specialize into one thing, and they do it very well, which makes them situationally overpowered when they clear hordes extremely well. I don’t think that’s particularly fun either.

Masterwork Pistol is another example. Most of the times you see a Ranger or Engineer it is with the pistol, and likewise it makes me question why I’d ever take crossbow or handgun.

Despite making up the minority of the armoury, you will see them in the majority of matches. Other weapons might as well not exist then.

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The LMB kills anything which is not armored on Cataclysm. On difficulties below it is even more effective. The RMB kills anything which is not CW or boss on Cataclysm. On difficulties below it is less effective.

But starting on Legend and even more so on Cataclysm it is devastating due to no cleave limit and the high damage. There are only two enemies which you would have to keep the whole 10 seconds in the fire cone for it to kill. The rest is dying faster like for example all horde enemies. Just place it on ledge drops or spawn points or close to the melee front line and it is working like a lava pool. And you can easily place 4-5 fire cones at the same time due to the low cost. There is a Stormvermin patrol? Place two fire cones, stagger them twice and they are all dead. The higher the density the more effective the RMB is. The lower the difficulty the more effective the LMB is. The weapon is overpowered.

Granted there is not much which would have to be changed as it has a lot of intrinsic balance qualities with regards to talents (even if completely unintuitive). Personally, I would start with 20 % less damage but 25 % more burn time. Would be nearly the same overall damage but need a tiny bit more effort to keep enemies in the affected area. Not sure if that would be enough.

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How coruscation staff is op? I somehow couldnt make use of it, everything i tried i did better with fireball.

Its op as hell, insane cleave, insane stagger (same or bigger than shield bash on heavies) good dodge good attack pattern (though need to learned or just spam lights)

Its the passive component of it, you can just throw a heap of those gouts down and then proceed to go take a drink and you´ll be doing a heap of damage without even having to move.

So in say a melee with a stormvermin patrol/monster where you´d normally be unable unable to make use of the staff, you can.

The cleave by default doesnt strike me as amazing, the stagger is indeed on the strong side but that´s only really notable on CW´s that it doesnt cleave. The rest of the things you noted i do agree with.

But it´s a fairly slow one to compensate for the above. So the sum of the parts is a strong weapon indeed but i hesitate to call it an overpowered one.

Lights have Linesman and Heavies have Heavy Linesman properties. They do cleave CWs, though the cleave limit is kind of low so it’s not that noticeable. The stagger is really strong though, and has the same cleave as its damage.

A Chaos Warrior has 20 mass, 10 against Heavy Linesman so the cleave isn’t that obvious with a 10.45 cleave limit.

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