Don't let the Havoc derank changes go through, please

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide General Discussion
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As the title says, don’t let the havoc deranking changes go through, please for the love of god.

The deranking system has always been an issue even before these changes, only mitigated by the fact that a group of 4 technically had 12 tries at a havoc 40. Still, there was toxicity because losing had consequences on the one hosting the havoc, restricting their ability to play the game mode in the future.

Now, with the change making it so a group of 4 has a maximum of 3 tries will only increase that level of toxicity. Players who want to experiment with builds and weapons will not be able to do so without affecting others they play with, and new players will have a very hard time because they will be pressured to play a certain way in order to make the havoc win more consistent.

My group of friends and I do havocs almost every day in an attempt to both help each other get our weekly havocs and also help others with it. We’re also at the point to where we are trying new builds and weapons here and there to spice up gameplay and see if other stuff can work well. We’re not the best at it but we manage to do our havocs relatively consistently while also having new players with us.

This will change that. I don’t want to tell a new player to rework their entire build and play according to our directions. I don’t want my friends to do the same. I don’t want new players to feel responsible for a loss that has consequences on our ability to play this game mode.

This is a difficulty mode in a PvE game mode. Deranking and decay systems are for PvP ranked modes. Darktide has no PvP, it has no leaderboard, there is nothing in this game you can gloat with aside from cosmetics you unlock permanently anyway. Why does the deranking and decay system have to exist? Just remove it entirely, if possible. If not, at the very least don’t let these new changes go through.

I’m a fan of almost every other change to Havoc. The campaign thing is a bit weird as I don’t see why we just can’t have all the modifiers in the pool at once, but it’s okay. Not being able to boost someone’s havoc with 1 mission makes sense to be honest, as that did feel a little cheesy. I would not even mind doing the grind to go back up from 30 to 40. I’m confident that my friend group and I could do it.

I just don’t want the deranking system to go through. I don’t know what purpose you developers at fatshark think this change will achieve. But I will say this, if people played this game mode less before, they’ll play it even less after these changes go through. So please, for the sake of the letting us enjoy this difficulty mode without the stress of not being able to play it after a few losses, either don’t let the changes go through, or give us infinite tries.

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Just allow us to unlock limitless H40 games once say 5 or 10 h40s have been cleared.

All I want to do is experiment with whacky builds and challenge runs in h40. Reginald puts it quite nicely:

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Yeah just to add my voice to this:

I wasn’t going to touch Havoc period, the reason was the deranking system made zero sense to me (that and the party finder can take a ridiulous amount of time to utilize, sometimes 30+ minutes to get a group, where I am).

I don’t think the rewards or progression, or even the challenge, are sufficient justification for the deranking mechanic.

To be blunt, I’d rather just play how I want, and not jump through these arbitrary hoops.

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Preach, brother

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That’s exactly it.

I’ve beaten enough H40s to be allowed to never have to deal with the deranking BS ever again.

People that get to this stage will never lose that skillset so deranking them makes no sense.

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Yep we’ve all voiced our disgust at the demotion mechanic and as usual FS don’t seem to listen.

The demotion system is why I haven’t touched it since getting my h40 and havoc cosmetics/penances.

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So the rank decay is definitely not going to change?

On top of that no public match making change listed

Updates to Havoc - Dev Blog

Over complicated, do this and that, if this happens then that, but you can choose then this. etc Zzzz

Imagine if you lost some T5 games or took a break from game, then you were forced to play T1, T2 etc to get access again to T5. It is like that.

Would rather just new T6 difficulty to just jump in and out to play rather than going through party finder, send request, waiting for acceptance etc

image

Arbitrary delay of one week, no real tangible reason if going to get it anyway now or later. Funny how in same sentence “this part of Havoc was frustrating” right after what is presented is frustrating in itself…

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What I cannot understand about their reluctance of changing the demotion mechanic is that Havoc, like any other mode in the game, is there to be fun!

A decent number of people find the challenge H40s provide to be fun and entertaining and the demotion mechanic adds nothing but frustration into the mix.

I fully understand that it’s supposed to be there to add some stakes to the gamemode but it fails at doing that. It actively makes me not want to play havoc anymore out of principle.

The only punishment you need for failing a mission in a challenge mode, is to have wasted your time not progressing. You don’t need extra punishment FatShark! Either people are good enough to pass and they will rarely get hit by that extra punishment which then is more infuriating than anything else or they aren’t good enough to pass in which case, not passing is enough of a punishment for that group.

please tell me something can still be done about this @FatsharkStrawHat

I am having serious trouble understanding the thought process here.
I am engaged by your “for fun”- gamemode by it being fun. I am not engaged by having the gamemode force a playstyle on me out of fear of losing access to the gamemode I want to play.

The solution is very simple; optimize for fun. Adding more restrictive demotion mechanics is the opposite of fun.

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Yup. Pig swill.

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They’re hellbent on cheap, and objectively cruel, psychological tricks in the name of retention.

Same reason they have a fomo shop.

Some candy crush saga “specialist” will be whispering this stuff into their ears and telling them it’s the only way to keep players, with no regard to DT having some of the most addictive core gameplay I’ve ever encountered.

The irony of all the retention stuff being the offputing part of the game.

For me personally, penances are the absolute best way to keep retention. Keep pushing new penances out with new unlockable cosmetics, even when no maps or other content is out, and it’ll keep me entertained and engaged. It gives drive to play.

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Let us not forget that Fatshark are also objectively lazy and incompetent. They need these cheap and stupid “retention” methods because it is literally all they know how to do. Anything complex like a new map mode (say defense instead of offense), mobs that have some ability to coordinate and use the environment (eg gunners actually suppressing players while melees try to flank), etc is beyond their capabilities.

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This comment on the @Reginald vid really made me go “damn, I didnt even consider THAT :poop:” :

ClaytorYurnero - The only major matchmaking change is that now joiners will be incentivized to scrutinize the builds of everyone else since they now have personal risk involved.
Plenty of 30+ Havoc rank games are probably gonna be “Player joins, sees Host/Others aren’t running hyper meta, proceeds to leave” ad infinitum

So toxicity and difficulty getting a game will slice BOTH WAYS!!!

Please Fatshark, this neeeeds changed. Its way worse!

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Adding to the Book’s section on why Havoc is awful.

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Its always been like this, i’ve joined havoc groups before that have kicked 15+ people before deciding the comp was “fine” only to get bodied halfway into the map. Its always like “hey uh… zealot, are you really sold on xyz talent option… ooo running power maul, thats a no from me bigdog kicks”

or whatever…

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But now, as the comment says, people joining will also be leaving since they will be penalized for joining a non-meta team. So it cuts both ways, whereas before it was only the host that would kick people.

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I saw that too and I was like “hell no. That’s going to make Havoc WAY worse for everyone.”

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Yeah, this is like, literally bad on every single metric. As a joiner, you’re now at risk so you won’t just ‘click on anything’ and join to help, as it risks your own rank as well now, regardless of what level you’re playing too. So the idea of a 40 even getting off the ground is laughable, on top of the fact that if you’re going for something like true survivor, instead of having what honestly feels like near infinite resets starting at 40 to get the flawless you need, you get like…15.

This will kill the game mode, and the mode is on life support to begin with. I know I’ve been doing my 40’s every week despite complaining at one point because I still like the difficulty, and like experiencing it along with using a ‘meta build’ with an actual purpose/reason behind it. But once this update goes live, my 40 will get kicked down to 30, for NO REASON, and I’d need to fight tooth and nail to get back up there again for actually no benefit beyond enjoyment from me.

So, yeah, I’ve been and will continue to finish grinding out the penances for Havoc this week (got 30 helper missions left, I’m getting there..) then I’m out. They’ll get 5 low rank runs out of me after that for the weekly crap shoot penance, then I’m never touching the game mode again until they fix this, assuming they ever do.

Cause this is nothing but anti player. They left the system that makes everyone hate the game mode as is, while also making even more terrible systems around it to make it even more unfun. Can’t exactly understand what dumb a$$es over there think this will ‘retain players’, when the game mode is already barely breathing to begin with, and this will do nothing but make it lifeless. A game mode can’t keep people playing if nobody want’s to play it FS, this isn’t a ranked ladder, you’re not competing against ever changing meta’s and other players to continually put yourself on top. You’re playing a difficulty slider and being told you have to earn the privilege to play on Very Hard again, and that’s actually just stupid.

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Don’t let them hear you say this. While I agree, they’ll just add a sixth tier of penance to all the existing ones (including the terrible havoc mission requirements) that doubles the numbers and tells you to do it all over again. And they won’t even give you a border…(since they already handed those out at the half way mark).

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This

You should unlock havoc level, and be able to choose to launch a mission of any difficulty equal or under the last rank you had unlocked.

Anyways, perso, I don’t care of what they will do with Havoc. For me it is clearly lost time by developers.
I would have loved a really different feeling than the base game… but I don’t feel that. I feel that someone wants to impose me how I will play. Let’s say it, it won’t work on me.
And the condition change, not sure it will change that. I hate the hidden modifier that restricts ammunitions too much.

Clearly, I hate this game mode… so much that last week I have forgotten to complete 1 game to get a reward (and try to complete 5 weeks with havoc rewards). No, seriously, I hate too much Havoc… that I just want to forget it…

So when I see that they plan to spend more and more time on a failed feature… I begin to be anxious of the future of this game.
Because if Havoc is its future, I am already about to be out.

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This is the tragedy of Darktide in one succinct idea.

Candycrush and other dark pattern games have all these crazy retention systems in play specifically because the core gameplay loop is actually NOT compelling or interesting without it.

Darktide has amazing core gameplay that can stand on its own without these asinine retention systems. And in fact these retention systems have hindered the game and held it back since day 1 because they are frustrating and not necessary. And most people see right through that.

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