Dog-only Duo w/o dodging & sprinting

[EggFever]

i have no idea how you dont see a problem with an ability that lets you auto clear missions tbh
if you want a game that lets you AFK to beat missions there are plenty of them im sure

[Mezmorki]

Here’s a fundamental question for y’all:

Should Darktide be a game where:

Choice A:
Being successful on the hardest standard difficulty requires a moderate to high level of skill for all builds in all or most of the game’s major mechanical systems (I.e. aiming, managing ammo/heat, mastering melee attack patterns, blocking, dodging, managing stamina and toughness, awareness, pacing, etc).

Or

Choice B:
Being successful on the hardest standard difficulty can be accomplished using certain builds that trivialize or ignore a significant amount of the game’s major mechanical systems and requires significantly less effort, experience, and/or game sense compared to other builds.

For myself, I choose option A.

My worry in seeing this thread and in playing Arbiter a fair amount is that the game is sliding into Option B. Even without using a dog heavy build, Arbiter is so strong you can just push through everything it feels like. I find myself mindlessly mashing through Auric HiSTG and thinking “if I was playing any other class I would’ve been dead 5 minutes ago”

[Gideon404]

Usually thirty minutes with four human players. Fides Irae and Daisy were doing their best but there’s only two of them!

[Jord]

@Gideon404

Brasil?

Netherlands.

@MixedLetters

I implore to you walk into this same mission with an Ogryn holding the block button only with his shield and tell me how you completed the mission in 50 minutes, much less in general (they are functionally the same, but you’ll see class wise one key difference…).

You and i both know Ogryn doesnt have a pet so your logic would not work in this example.

@MixedLetters

Also worth reading like, literally anything else in this thread/the comment directly above this one with my quote from Molonious.

Again, i did. You are framing it like the dog is THE problem, any person with a grain of sense would see something else is at fault here.

@MixedLetters

@Molonious

Gloriana’s usually a ~30 min run, not 47 minutes. If it’s a janky clear but taking that much longer to finish, is it still super busted?

To address this point as well (though it slightly was already). The point isn’t ‘ohh this is the most effective thing’, the point is ‘you can fundamentally ignore what used to be key tenants of the games design, and that’s actively harmful to the game/just bad design overall’.

Here for example; you can apply the same principle to all classes, arbites dog-less (shock mine for example or infinte stagger)

Your argument is; dude can play only using dog while you leave out the part the sole reason he is able to is talents that enable him to block infinte with the shield, or insane toughness true the talents.

@MixedLetters

The game even just before this update even required relatively careful management of dodges, stamina, hitting and pushing enemies when needed, cleaving through swaths of them to make paths, and shooting down high priority targets. required, being the key word here.

You are setting a false nerrative on purpose. (Mind you he is even using pushes but that is besides the point.) All these things you still have to do if you want to play the game like you would normally. This argument is the same as doing a game with zealot stealth and running to the end of the map and saying, yeah 100% zealot is breaking game-mechanics cause xx…

@MixedLetters

Now with the Arbite, it isn’t. You win, you will win. Hold up block, point dog at things, you win. You don’t even need to shoot or dodge, and that is a problem. Fundamental game systems are allowed to be completely ignored, and while it isn’t ‘optimal’, the point here is that ‘there’s a reason every game now is 20-25 minutes’, if you’re also playing it, you just win that much harder.

Now hear me out, this may sound strange to you. This is how pets are suposed to work It isnt in anyway outperforming other builds even tho you and other try very hard to set that nerrative. Facts dont lie. It is the talents that keep you alive while the dog goes to work, it is your shield keeping you alive while the dog goes to work. That is were the problem lies, not with the dog itself. A pet is suposed to do these things, in other games more effective than this mind you.

@MixedLetters

Also important to note, this is with 2 players. If you add 2 more with 2 more dogs? I bet you get that clear time down to 30-35 minutes easy, with the extended time literally just being because you’re walking not running.

Yup, and if you activly play the class with dogs you will complete is just as fast as other classes.

@SamSlade

it is very clear that you are arguing in bad faith. you are being intentionally obtuse, while refusing to address counter-arguments in context.

Do you want me to qoute every response from me to the arguments you all have given ?! It will be a very long post. I could say the same about you, i have given countless examples why the argument is flawed but some just like to stick their head in the sand no matter how many examples i or others give. Just because we dont agree with the other nerrative some try to make doenst mean we dont adress or respond to them, as evidence all the replies we have given.

@EggFever

The problem is that the dog can completely replace someone’s main weapon and still do acceptable DPS. I’ve had HiShock games with 3 randoms and no restrictions on dodging and sprinting that lasted longer than that game

I do not see a problem because that is the concept of a pet. It does in no way outperform any other build nor is it as effective in the hands of a less skilled player., even so other build are much more effective. Example:

Gone Apple Picking | HAVOC 40 “True Solo” | Darktide (UNVERIFIED WORLD RECORD)*

MERCANTILE HL 70-04 IS AWESOME - Damnation True Solo Gameplay｜Darktide

[Fingeris]

I don’t see why the dog is a problem here.

Arby is definitely good at surviving and giving enough time for the dog to deal with enemies (in the hands of a good player).

Does it mean now that the dog shouldn’t deal any damage, or the Arbitrator should wear paper armor/shield? Who would play it then?

[SamSlade]

@Jord

i have given countless examples why the argument is flawed

this is not true. thus far you have provided conjecture in support of your opinion; that is not proof of anything. There is a clip posted here showing the dog killing literally everything. you say this is not an issue, but the posted clip shows it is; what is your point?

[Fingeris]

@SamSlade

There is a clip posted here showing the dog killing literally everything.

Even the Devil Claw sword would kill anything if you give it enough time

Like Dog had while players were running around, dodging, pushing, and blocking.

[SamSlade]

unless this devil claw sword is zooming around the screen like a dog-shaped missile while you cower behind a shield, no, it is not the same.

No reasonable person would accept that assertion on face value. watch the clip and explain how and when in that clip a sword in the players hand would do exactly what the dog did.

[Fingeris]

So what you suggest, make dog or shield useless? Or both?

[Harridas]

Maybe the dog shouldn’t be able to handle every threat on its own, maybe the dog should have to specialize in something rather than do well against everything.

(This should also be the case for the players too)

[Fingeris]

And then @Harridas will make another video how they still manage to beat it

[SamSlade]

just tone down the numbers on the class. Bringing the resilience of the dog-aided arbite down would make sending your dog away more risky, and make Lone Wolf more reasonable by just upping your resilience a bit instead of making you a space marine.

[Harridas]

Without attacking, shooting, dodging or sprinting?

[Fingeris]

Well, unless the dog will deal no damage - it will always be possible.

[Harridas]

Then do it, prove your words hold meaning

[Fingeris]

Do what? Remove the damage from the dog? Do I look like a developer? (and even then, nobody would react to such provocation)

[Fingeris]

Or you’re just confirming that beating match with dog only is your own achievement which doesn’t represent the playerbase at all.

Which makes more sense.

[Harridas]

Read. The. Post. It’s about powercreep. You shouldn’t be able to ignore so much of the video game and still win on the highest non-havoc difficulty.

[Argonaut14]

I think possibly muddying the water with time-to-complete, comparisons with other weapons/builds and older builds is sliding the discussion all over the place (as usual on FS forum but hey).

The key point for me is, the dog and this build removes the need to use Melee combat or Ranged combat from the player… the two key fundamental parts of the game that literally everything else is balanced around. If you think removing Melee and Ranged combat from a Co-Op horde shooter isn’t a fundamentally broken level of power creep then I’m baffled as to what you expect. Maybe one of those MMO’s where you auto run and attack? IdleTide?

[Enforest]

Honestly, this makes little sense. The duo is impressive, but such things existed since forever. People did duos with Ogryns when the class was crap, did it prove anything? 40+ min for a meme duo Auric run is not a staple for balance discussion, same as stealth Zealot breaking the game and soloing 40 Havoc in 25-30~ minutes. Not to mention all video consist of purposely not killing the enemies outside of the objectives and breaking the spawn system, which anyone can do.

The dog DPS is several time less than a half-decent player. If your dog outdamages teammates, well… Thank the playerbase for being total trash at the game. I’ve seen pre-rework Shield Ogryn doing 2-3 times more damage than Gunpsykers, Zealots and Plasma vets, again, does this mean old Ogryn was OP?