I just want to point out that there is also an upward limit on how much you can buff enemies and retain fun gameplay, so there is a hard upper limit on how strong you can reasonably let the player character be.
This is correct, however it is a problem that was not encountered in VT2 despite it almost certainly being an easier game than DT. Again, the average player in VT2 struggles on the top two difficulties. DT has taken VT2’s melee system, nerfed it, added in powerful ranged enemies that you didn’t have to worry about in VT2 and buffed elites that are significantly more dangerous than their VT2 counterparts (ragers, crushers, bulwarks). It is almost 100% not a concern that should be used to justify mechanical nerfs in DT, especially this early on, and considering the new additions I can’t even understand the baseline mechanical changes from the VT2 melee system.
EDIT: Also yes I understand your point of view and I want to be clear that I’m not trying to be hostile or attack you personally, I am simply an extreme fan of this game series and want it to be as good as it possibly can be. I put 1400 hours into VT2, I want to put another 1400 into DT but the changes to the formula so far do not make me optimistic if they keep going in the direction they’re going.
I understand your point. Even if we disagree, I think it is imperative that both our voices be heard in regards to buffs and nerfs. I admit I’m being a Witch hunter in regards to nerfs.
Thank you for being civil, and elaborating your response.
You too, my first response was probably a little more aggressive than it should have been, so I appreciate you keeping the tone of discussion very civil. Always a pleasure when balance discussions don’t devolve into a shouting match. Hopefully in a month or two from now we’re both fairly satisfied with where the game is at.
Our main issue is that we went from John Wick to become Fat Larry wheezing after running a 50 meter dash without his mobility scooter. At least make dodging or sprint better so we’re an averagely fit human being. I can’t even run up or away from range units 8 feet away from me because I just get blasted to death by stunlock and my sprint doesnt outrun and you can’t dodge anymore. Plus besides most weapons dodge distance being non existence, you made it super clunky for most VT2 players as you doubled the dodge time compared to what it is in VT2.
I am of the opinion that they should have made smaller limited changes (like change the dodge characteristics of the assassin weapons) instead of doing a change to a major system that almost every other part of the gameplay interacts with.
Impacts from unintended effects tend to be lower.
Less customer complaints.
Data collection can be a bit more focused rather than being spammed by things that were affected by the big change but is not apparent without looking more deeply into it.
The nerf was needed. Even the OP admits it was broken. “So what if it was broken” he says. I’ve never seen such whining and moaning over a minor change. This vocal minority crying about dodge and stamina and Darktide not being a 1:1 copy of VT2 are pathetic. If VT2 is what you want then go play VT2.
Why? Nerfing weapons with infinite dodge count and nerfing their dodge range multiplier is understandable, but the nerf to the underlying mechanic was insanity. The melee combat already felt worse than VT2’s at the beginning of the pre-order beta, and now it’s even worse.
I’ll admit I didn’t read the whole thread but I will chip in with my vote that the nerfs to dodge made me swap from Sienna to Kruber in VT2. It turned something that should be easy to understand and utilise into a crudely patched together maze of values, such as diminishing returns, the curve thereof, distance dodged, etc.
It feels even worse in Darktide, where you’re given all this mobility that I worry is going to end up little more than an illusion a few months down the line. As I understood it (I might be wrong) dodging needed those nerfs in VT2 because unlike blocking it had no real way to rein them in otherwise, no resource to exhaust. Here, however, we have stamina, so why not have it consume stamina %? Any values influencing dodges would also be readily represented by the %.
What I often found in VT1, VT2 and now in this beta running up to Darktide’s release, there’s a greater emphasis on numerical values contributing to a pretty picture on a spreadsheet (e.g. cutoffs, curves, caps, etc.), but in-game it usually translates to confusing, hidden gameplay elements that also end up looking silly in-game, like anicancelling combos or watching mobs skate across the floor at Mach 5 speeds to deliver a hit.
Didn’t one of the blog posts on ranged combat specifically mention a desire to prioritise what feels good? Dodging feels awful and user unfriendly at the moment, even more so in Darktide where you’re otherwise pretty nimble.
As I understood it (I might be wrong) dodging needed those nerfs in VT2 because unlike blocking it had no real way to rein them in otherwise, no resource to exhaust. Here, however, we have stamina, so why not have it consume stamina %? Any values influencing dodges would also be readily represented by the %.
We had stamina in VT2, your problem is that the mechanics are poorly explained, not that the mechanics are bad. Dodge costing stamina would be a mistake, and it already effectively costs stamina considering dodging stops your stamina from regenerating. Dodging uses a separate (and unfortunately hidden) resource called effective dodge count, which is the amount of dodges you can do in quick succession before your dodges stop functioning properly. It’s a different amount for every weapon, melee and ranged, and it’s entirely hidden from the player for some unknown reason. There’s also dodge range multiplier, which is again a hidden stat tied to each weapon, but it’s less important. The system in VT2 functioned fine, it just shouldn’t be hidden. The problem now is that these mechanics are being nerfed and make the game feel clunky and sluggish.
Yeah, I loved playing Zealot Saltz in VTII, I thought DK Zealot would play the same since their feats look reeeaaaal similar.
I hate how my ult is interrupted from lasguns, melee doesn’t give a lot of toughness back, AI doesn’t really pull out their melee enough or get suppressed, ult overall is underwhelming as hell… and now good luck trying to dodge bullets after dodge nerfs + range damage slow/stun. I now use my ult to run into cover, using ult into enemies is a death sentence at Diff 4 and diff 5. Saltz on the other hand, his ult felt powerful and I’d actually be able to mow down elites and specials in the hoard to ease pressure off my team (high risk high reward gameplay).
In DT there’s also no THP so when my zealot has 1 hp, I feel a sense of dread and weakness when a hoard is coming - all I can do is seek cover and pray hoping damage doesnt chip through toughness. Meanwhile, in VTII I look forward to mowing down hoards (with caution) to get my THP. I also don’t understand why they made stam stop regenerating during a dodge? That can be another topic.
And in DT, because our toughness regen is heavily dependent on being next to our team, I can’t (as a high risk high reward class) make risky clutch moves like ganking without dying. Meanwhile in VTII, everyone can generate their own THP and make clutch moves or gank hard to reach specials/elites. If we’re forcibly separated we can handle ourselves and reunite, at most we’ll just lose each other’s auras such as Kruber giving you 10% crit, but it won’t kill us.
I get DT devs are trying to encourage teamplay, but forcibly making us play as a conventional “team” doesn’t work for some classes. Hand holding isn’t fun. VTII didn’t have these mechanics forced on us and we, the players, learned quick that we need to stick together to win.
I can decide for myself what my problem is, and that’s that the dodging mechanic itself currently feels bad (in Darktide) for several reasons, one of which is that the values are obfuscated from the player. I’m actually of the opinion that if a mechanic is hidden and/or is poorly explained then chances are high it is in fact a bad mechanic. I’m not naive enough to think that all mechanics under the hood can be communicated to the player, but there’s that and then there’s not explaining what Finesse is and representing it by a vague bar.
I don’t work at Fatshark so I can’t guess whether or not dodging consuming stamina % would work or not (not with as much certainty as you apparently can), but it’s something I personally would try, at least with other adjustments made elsewhere. Forcing me to choose between a block (stationary defence) or a dodge (mobile defence) is an interesting decision I’ve enjoyed making in other games.
Blocking by comparison is far easier to understand and make full use of. There is no blocking equivalent of mobs skating across half the room to get to you. Why is it that dodging suffers from all these issues and even slight tuning of these values sways the game so heavily between enabling risk-free kiting and feeling clunky and sluggish? Perhaps the mechanic is inherently flawed and is therefore hard to balance due to overcomplexity?
After the patch, the tactical axe on zealot feels the best. You have decent dodge range and speed, you can quickly eliminate targets, and you can take the flamer for crowd control. It works pretty well and allows you to be mobile enough to not just get shreked by everything
Ah, well check this out my faithful friend, the Thunder Hammer has a perk that gives a bunch of toughness back for multi-hit, so you can really really keep that bar full indefinitely. I’m talkin’ wildly high amounts of toughness sustain.
Problem is, it doesn’t matter.
Get hit enough, even with all that toughness, you’ll still go down. The Thunder Hammer also doesn’t kill enemies as much as it just displaces them, knocking them on the floor and sometimes even pushing them to your flanks - eventually you miss one of the enemies that get thrown to your flank, they get up, hit you and down you.
Makes me think toughness was supposed to work like THP until the sharks decided to try something different.