DLC and red items

This just reminded me that I didn’t mention getting red item dupes in my rewards thread. :cry:

Yes the loot system and crafting system are flawed and yes there is a tangible reason in wanting to acquire Red Items because then you can ignore most of the BS behind said crafting system.

Loot System: The drop chances for Red Items and Cosmetics were increased already probably 2 or 3 times I believe because on release it was simply beyond ridiculous in trying to get either to drop. Currently the drops are alright if you amass enough Legend Vaults since Champion Chests to me are kinda meh + you already automatically get some via quests but for myself I see such chests are general trash to do away with once I’ve accrued a lot of them.

In a perfect world the current loot system is alright in the sense that if you have working and balanced gameplay that should allow the player to get through certain difficulties in which case they then are rewarded. However even now after all this time we still have bugs/glitches that effect the base game (not to mention Beastmen spawn/audio/animation issues) which can easily inflate the difficulty making that reward far more difficult to obtain specifically when you want a certain item.

So yea currently due to the game’s lack of quality when it comes to inconsistency the Loot System is thus flawed imo.

Crafting System: Currently is archaic and ignored even though Winds of Magic Expansion changed a bunch of stuff while not touching on Crafting/Item Modifiers and so on. Lost opportunity due to ignorance I imagine.

Having a Red Item means you do not have to deal with the ridiculous Re-Rolling mechanic nearly as much. I still remember the great Green Dust famine that occurred soon after the game’s release where you were forced to play lower difficulties in order to get the Crafting Materials needed for re-rolling stats. Without a Red item you are having to deal with both the stats themselves plus the quality of each stat which is something that can indeed have a significant impact on gameplay when it comes to reaching breakpoints or simply that extra amount of a buffer to survive certain scenarios.

So yea. Dealing with Orange items and the infinite re-rolling can be frustrating. Even with Red items it can be frustrating because you might want a weapon to do X while another of the same type of weapon to do Y and again Z - but then you either need 3 Red items of the same type or you have to play Fatsharks slot machine to try and get what you want.

DLC Weapons requiring 5 Red Items is indeed rather expensive for a new player. Not only due to the amount of time but also possibly losing needed red items for the current class or other characters/classes JUST to get this 1 weapon which usually with the new DLC is really good.

Possible fixes or improvements would be to emulate VT1’s bounty board in that you can more easily work towards specific goals to unlock higher tier items. Perhaps lowering the cost of crafting red items to 3 while adding arbitrary ways to make use of crafting materials (cosmetics, keep decorations, etc… something that shouldn’t positively influence the gameplay).

Crafting System should be looked at in that you shouldn’t re-roll the same stats that an item already had. This would cut down on the amount of randomness in a small way. Certain stats/properties/traits desperately need to be looked at mostly when it comes to either complete remakes or simply buffs. Such changes are long overdo.

Shiny Skins cost Shillings in Lohners Pawn Shop.
Red weapons cost Shillings in Lohners Pawn Shop.
Chest drop Shillings instead of Reds at the same rate / %age

Still have the same problem. Those of us with 200+vaults to open will have shillings galore and buy the whole range in minutes. New player STILL need to grind like a MoFo to get what they want.

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This is confirmed then? Too bad Shilling Drop Rate wasn’t simply added to what currently can drop so you could get Shillings / Reds in the same chest.

Perhaps they should add a few Quests that can give a small amount of shillings or something. Weekly Events / Daily Quests / Heroic Deeds.

Absolutely not confirmed - just my musings.

I simply refuse to believe adding the DLC weapons to the random drop table of chests requires a lot of work from fatshark.

I agree adding the weapons into the random drop table would be a better way to go about things. Fatshark received a lot criticism for doing it this way in VT1, but that was because DLC weapons could only drop on DLC maps, and we also couldn’t pick which character we got our loot for like we can in VT2.

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If I remember correctly, the Devs said something about people who own the DLCs getting starting shillings and then you could get more from just playing and finishing levels? I think there was a post on here somewhere about it…

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There ya go:

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Nope. Because chests are versionned since… I don’t remember which very old patch, but it’s been a very long time.
So if you open them after the new “shillings” version comes out, you’ll still loot as in prepatch. Which means you won’t have shillings.
So chests from patch 1.2 will loot from 1.2 loot table, when chests from 1.4 will loot from 1.4 loot table.
They are versionned exactly to prevent the issue of “hoarding”.

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I always lol at complaints regarding Veteran items in this game. I used to think they were difficult to get. Now at 900+ hours of play I have all the Veteran items that I could ever want. And even before such a massive playtime, I had all of the weapons that I really wanted. That was back when Falchion was super OP and Brace of Pistols was a Gatling gun with an ammo box nearby. I also can’t forget to mention that I had some of my favorites before all the droprates were buffed and you could craft max stat weapons with dust. And I got them by playing on Champion! Yes, very lucky indeed. However - a few patches after that I was literally swimming in Veteran stuff. There are still a few isolated illusions of Veteran items that I do not have, but it’s just cosmetic.

At this point I have an absolutely absurd amount of red dust and dupes sitting around in my inventory.

What’s funny is that most of the time I don’t even feel compelled to upgrade a weapon to Veteran status. For example, the Kruber spear I use is still at orange and doesn’t have max rolls (however they are decent). It’s my primary weapon on Cata when I play Merc and it is not a handicap at all.

Later today I’ll post the details of everything I have across 3 characters as well as what’s sitting in my inventory doing nothing.

For anyone who is complaining about the lack of Veteran items at this point the following may apply:

  • they make claims that they have a good winrate with full books on Legend when they absolutely do not

  • have simply not played the game long enough (muh 20 hour playtime should come with full endgame gear on all the characters I like!!!1one!!!)

  • are extremely unlucky (with the 22-24% droprate on Emperor Vaults I do not buy this anymore)

  • are fabricating stories to sow discord and troll the forums (a lot of this going around nowadays for some reason)

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I don’t think they only complain about the lack of veteran items, but probably the lack of focusing some specific veteran items (Like I still miss some red illusions here and there, and have no way to focus them, and I stayed without a single veteran falchion until like a month ago, red crafting was a blessing though)

It’s a multifaceted topic for sure. I do welcome the arrival of the Emporium for two reasons:

  • I will absolutely pay for cosmetics that I think are cool. I’m vain that way.

  • It will be nice to round out the Veteran illusions that I’m missing that I still desire.

However…

It is not the allure of Veteran items that keeps me playing this game. It is the gameplay loop. The people that have quit this game over “loot” are using it as an excuse to some degree. The promise of “loot grind” shouldn’t be what keeps you drawn to the game. If it is then there is something wrong (on the side of the player). My opinion of course.

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Yeah I do understand as I have some friends that are also in the place as you. But the game features “loot” (and somewhat grind, even if it’s nether the best part nor the most important).
Which is probably why I support Cataclysm have its own set of chests so it can be at least as rewarding as playing legend (because right now it’s more difficult, and you usually will lost or ignore grimoires, so you end up with a worse reward compared to the difficulty).

So yeah, some players (including me) will play for the loot, and to unlock the next frame.
Thoses players are not worse (or better), they just choose to play for different reason.

The gameplay loop is very well made (apart from the balance which could use some overhaul, including weapons traits), the “loot” loop could still be improved (by a lot).

I’m also waiting for the arrival of the Emporium to fix some of the need.

Nobody is gatekeeping new players and the game is easier to get into than ever before. Us who played the game at release had to go through the content as it was rebalanced.

It’s a game that requires dedication. Simple as that.
If you’re not willing to dedicate the time needed, then the game is not for you.

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Well, that’s a load of bollocks, sorry. This game requires dedication in acquiring the skill needed to play it on higher difficulties successfully. Every other attempt at forcing players to do this or that failed to achieve any goal at all. Even worse - low skill players now push to Legend and fail runs.
L4D did not have any of these issues because the gameplay itself and the satisfaction of actually completing a campaign was the only tangible reward you got, whereas failing the run was the only punishment. No need to try and do that which you cannot do and therefore do not enjoy doing.
This whole RPG-sims bastard of a level/loot/craft system serves only to hinder and annoy new players by creating a false sense of progress and experienced players by the sheer amount of time they are forced to waste on the stupid inventory management.

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This exactly! A lootgrind in itself does not work in a game like Vermintide at all! It only gets in the way of its fun bits! Now, for some games, the lootgrind can actually be a positive part of the gameplay loop. For example in Diablo, where the lootgrind is basically the point of the game. One can have a preference in which type of game one would prefer off course, but the design of Diablo, as it currently is, is actually well thought out and consistent with itself: You kill stuff, so you get items that make you more powerful, so you can farm stronger enemies, so you get more powerful gear, so you can farm even stronger enemies, etc… So when you get a good roll, that’s where the satisfaction of that game is.

In Vermintide however, the design feels a bit schizofrenic. Its main attraction is the outstanding skill-based combat gameplay, and the many different styles in which you can decimate ratmen in satisfying ways. But then it is combined with a bore of a lootgrind that seems to only be designed to prevent you from trying out new stuff… Why?! You need to farm a boatload of materials to craft a weapon of the same power your other weapons are. If you want to try something new you need to farm for ages just before you even can…

It’s like they slapped a lootgrind on top of Vermintide just because succesful MMOs and such have a lootgrind, while not realizing that those are completely different games that appeal to completely different things in which they are attractive! If you grind out a good weapon in Diablo you go “Yay, that’s what I’m doing this for!”, so grinding in that game is actually the fun part. While if you finally grind out a good weapon in Vermintide you only go “F-ing finally, now I can actually do what I wanted to do at the same level I was doing stuff before!”, and thus grinding in Vermintide is not fun at all.

So: Get rid of grinding for gameplay bonus in Vermintide. Let people earn gameplay power gradually, consistently, and relatively quickly. The Athanor is a brilliant system for that already (especially when you wouldn’t need to level each weapon seperately). Let the carrot of Vermintide be overcoming the next challenge, and earning cool cosmetics instead. I am 100% positive everybody would find that an improvement!

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I’ve played VT2 pretty casually. I have about 200ish hours and only cleared Legends with full books semi consistently lately. I’ve had very close to “bis” gear since about 70 hours, with 2 characters at 30 and 300 power lege items with almost perfect rolls (something like maybe 5-10% off in total). And since they buffed the drop rates on reds I’ve had all reds since about 120 hours, which imo is more than fair. Most of which I got from champ. I really don’t understand why having literally best-in-slot in every slot in sub 50 hours of playtime seems like a thing that people feel like should be easily obtainable. Maybe it’s just me but I like when there is something to work towards when playing muh vidya. Legend is completely possible to clear without the BiS gear, and I think a better attitude towards gear is that you don’t NEED the reds you WANT them, and you want to work towards them. Maybe on Cata you need them? I can’t say yet but that’s supposed to be the very endgame for the best players anyways so it doesn’t even matter. Just my 2 cents though.

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I can’t believe people actually argue against a few, very specific weapons being kept out of the loot pool, because that would mean they would disagree with a “decision” from fatshark.

Is this what you call delusional?

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Fatsharks decision to not add them to the normal chests is actually quite reasonable. If they were added to the normal chests some people would feel “forced” to hoard chests before every DLC to increase their chances of getting all the new cool stuff quickly as possible.

That being said, with the drop rates being rather low it is indeed not very fun for new players wanting to get their hands on red DLC weapons.

I feel like adding them to the normal chests when the DLC has been out for some time would make sense, or just make them cheaper to upgrade (or both).

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