Darktide's Weapon Design: Failure of Balance and Identity

This isn’t intended to necessarily be a diatribe. But with the itemization update looming, and it confirmed to not include weapon customization, I feel that there needs to be a hard look at how weapons in Darktide work, both in terms of balance and identity.

And, in my opinion, Darktide does not do this well.

Let me lay this out as best I can.


HOW IT WORKS:

Darktide currently utilizes weapon ‘families’, where, with some exceptions, similar-enough weapons are grouped together with a shared blessing pool and skin selection. This family, usually 2-3 weapons, is defined by a shared behavior among its members, and the only meaningful difference between individual weapons within that family tends to be either fire rate/damage adjustments (ranged weapons) or combo types (melee weapons). All braced autoguns share the same ADS. All infantry lasguns have the same scope. All Helbores have a bayonet, and all catachan swords have the parry mechanic. You get the gist.

There are some exceptions to this - weapons often are singletons, and psyker’s staves are all each their own ‘family’, but overall most weapons in the game comfortably fit on a continuum with the other weapons in their ‘family’.

This is where the problem lies.

I’m going to deal with this from two angles. The first is the game-balance angle. The second is the ‘identity’ angle.

GAME BALANCE

We can actually see the issues of how Darktide approaches itemization pretty directly.

Weapon families, assuming they’re not collectively ineffective at the highest realms of play (see: pre-buff recon lasguns, infantry lasguns currently), often see a monofocus on the ‘best’ of a given gun at the ‘job’ of that family.

Infantry lasguns are meant to be full-auto leadspitters - so everyone uses the Columbus MkV, because it has the most shots and therefore triggers the most ‘on repeated hit’ things to make it more powerful. The slower, more powerful versions don’t see as much use.

Infantry lasguns are supposed to be precise weapons - so back when they were able to one-shot-headshot everything not an ogryn consistently, the one everyone used most was the Kantrael Mk XII, because it hit the hardest and most consistently on ADS.

Revolvers? Meant to be precision headshot weapons, so the Zarona is constantly used and its hipfire variant in the same family gets dumpstered.

Chainaxes and Eviscerators? They both got more effective variants dropped in the same update and now nobody uses the old ones.

This problem is consistent across weapon families. The game balance philosophy weapon families are built around just means that there’s only one actually effective entry and two long-distant runner-ups, because only one of any given weapon will best fulfill its niche.

And that leads into the other topic…

WEAPON IDENTITY:

Let’s be honest. ‘Tech’ aside, memorizing movements aside, what is the difference between family members? Is each heavy sword, each catachan blade, each braced autogun, really distinct enough to be considered its own weapon?

No.

Darktide’s weapons lack identity, with the weapon families only serving to bloat a pool of weapons that started life as a RNG fest. There’s not enough to differentiate different marks, and this comes down even to the skins - because each skin applies to a family, and usually overwrites it to a specific ‘mark’ in terms of the ‘mesh’ of the weapon.

CONCLUSION:

In my opinion, Darktide’s weapons need to be dumpstered and started over from scratch. The coming itemization update could potentially fix the RNG and grind problems, but they won’t fix the identity and balance ones. These issues are going to be pervasive and constant, sapping dev time and making it impossible to consistently balance weapons.

The solution?

Simple.

Make weapon customization a thing.

Consolidate the weapon families down to single, modifiable guns. You don’t have Willywonka Version 2324232 or Sillyface ABCD ‘marks’. You have an infantry lasgun, or a braced autogun, or a heavy sword, or a knife, etc etc etc. You then choose what bits and pieces, what ammo, and what accessories go onto that weapon, which customizes how it shoots, what movesets it uses, and all the things currently handled by weapon ‘marks’.

Yeah, yeah, the meme, we all know the one.

But Hedge hasn’t worked here for at least a year, last I checked.

And y’all have this issue to fix.

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I forgot Hedge’s infamous quote for a moment and thought of this:
modifications

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Bad example on the chain axes. Mk4 is better than mk12 by a lot. No one should be using the mk12 unless its memes or amusement. Also the MK4 and MK12 feel very different to use so its kinda the worst example for your broader point.

The eviscerator is a solid example. Besides the longer rev time and pushstab i like the MK2’s swing pattern more but the Mk15 is WAY better as a weapon. Not even a competition.

I’m not sure its feasible to truely just rework the whole system at this point. But perhaps more stringent differentiation could be accomplished. IMO the ideal differentiation would have people arguing which is best without any kind of consensus forming.

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Last I heard everyone was using the Mk12 constantly. Did a balance patch slip through?

They should’ve thought of that before resorting to the circus of bad design decisions that is their current system. We know for a fact that the appearances of weapons are entirely modular, because a weapon customization mod exists.

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Given the timeframe it took them to implement the crafting overhaul (which has yet to prove that it actually solves the issues it has), don’t expect anything of this scope for the next 1,5-2 years at the minimum.

By then the game will be mostly down to the same 2-3k players as usual. If at all.

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Or we’ll have Darktide 2.

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Good lord, will people stop with that meme, like it’s not Hedge that decided on not having attachments. And he replied the CoD comment due to a known troll that was spamming about CoD having attachment after they had said that DT wouldn’t have them in the end.

‘It’s not CoD’ is a valid answer to such a spammer.


Then you need to make it able to communicate from the user to the server (and then to the other players, this is also a thing for the FTD mod).

While you won’t be able to ‘modify’ weapons like the customisation mod, but you will be able to switch variants/marks with the reworked system.

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Kinda strange but the Mk15 feel slower than the Mk2 for me, I’d prefer a Mk2 with Mk15’s push attack tbh

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From who? Its been worse than the MK4 since it dropped. I hope it gets buffs because its mid at best on zealot and melee vet. Downright garbage on any other vet tree. MK4s breakpoints and usability and push attack absolutely laugh in the face of the MK12.

Yea, terrible decision really. But we have what we have, trying to redesign away from it is a huge ask. I wish we could get a super stripped down version with customizable sights at least.

Yeah i don’t get this at all. Assuming we keep stats, how are we translating one stat to another? Also it feels weird that my chain axe can magically become a different one but whatever. Its a game. I should just not care. Apparently we can change one pattern of weapon into another. But we can’t put a scope on it. Insane.

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Have asked in the QA thread, didn’t get an answer (think SH has noticed it and said it didn’t come to late, so might be answered in the 2nd QA thread when it happen).

They might separate the ‘mark’ from the models themselves.

Well we don’t know how far the new system will go, but those sort of discussions always revolve around guns, where it’s less than 50% of the weapons, where they would probably have to try to make the system work on all the weapons :person_shrugging:

Yes when got used to chainaxe mk IV you just can’t go for a XII. You can add many power blessings and nodes so you don’t need to rely on critical hits. Many fun with it.

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i tried the old mk 4 chainsword recently and its so weak compared to the new mk 13 that it feels like it never moved from beta state

they just can’t be arsed putting in the work, we have seen this with this latest event, resurrecting a twin and slapping it into normal power interruption maps daring to call the event ‘‘terror in the dark’’ completely wasting the opportunity to introduce genestealers in the game forever

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OP spent a lot of typing to try to frame “i don’t like how the weapons feel, they should do instead!” as an objectively provable fact and not an appeal to emotion. at no point does anything he says give an argument for how customization would help his problems or even what those problems ARE outside of “everyone does this, so you should balance that way” ignoring that he isn’t everyone.

And he does this in the interest of massively overhauling how weapons work in favor of something vastly more complex and nearly impossible to balance, under the argument “it’s simple” since he can simply not make any attempt at detailing how it would work.

this thread is terrible. most threads on the fatshark forums are terrible. why do you people keep posting. the only takeaway from this is they should bring hedge back, he was an alright guy and clearly knew what he was talking about if people like this disagreed with him.

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