Good afternoon. I have been preparing some video comparisons of zealot weapons against various targets to better analyze potential damage in real circumstances and against the Ogryn bully butcher cleaver mk3, and other weapons. In part for @Nish’s thread. I have identified something that i consider a balance problem. Many people have discussed how the combat axes are definitely the best melee weapon in the game sans perhaps the illisi and powersword. Usually the conversation revolves around the weapon’s combination with brutal momentum and its high damage. But i have come to a totally different conclusion after my testing.
Stagger. The stagger on this weapon is actually nuts. There is no number of crushers that put me in any danger in even open terrain. I am fully able to take on 10 crushers, solo, without even taking damage. The heavy sword seems to be able to do something similar but is so preposterously slow that i don’t consider this a problem. Try this with just about any other weapon and you will likely find yourself eating hits.
This is because the Antax and presumably other combat axes are able to stagger crushers out of their overheads or any other attack with a single heavy swing and/or the stagger thrust. With no buff stacks. That’s quite absurd and likely leads to the weapon being able to deal with any and all threats with no risk. Which is obviously excessive. Rather than nerfing either brutal momentum or damage on the Antax i propose simply significantly reducing stagger against elites and specials. This will mean being forced to use the weapon’s considerable mobility for safety rather than easy button taps. An upshot to such a restrained and narrowly targeted nerf is avoiding forcing anyone to reroll any blessings, thus no one has to suffer at the crafting bench.
Except that the stagger in large part is what makes it possible to survive hordes with it, too. It would have to be tested extensively, because I suspect lowering the stagger on them (too much) would make it unusuable - and thus indeed sending people back to the crafting RNG hellhole.
Which is why I specifically proposed reducing stagger against elites and specialists. Because you are absolutely correct. I don’t want to nerf it against those targets. I want Ragers and Executors (maulers/crushers) to be a threat. They currently are not. I just gotta boil down a video and I’ll post it up here to prove my point.
Fair enough, you’re right that there are seperate stagger values for different armors.
I’m aware it can disrupt Crusher attacks, though I’ve never thought of that as something unique or particularly broken, but then again I’ve also never tried to solo 10 crushers with it
Obviously now that I have started trying to record my so called easy feat I achieved during testing I can no longer preform it. Still can kill them all but I usually take one hit.
Interesting. More interestingly I’m not really doing this.
I think there are more problems with the Caxe. I mean I still consider it a far better pick on Vet of all places than PS, and I don’t pick it for CCing crushers there.
This might be part of it, a small one, but this ain’t it chief.
No, I think this IS it. And the reason this is it is because no other weapon can safely engage so many dangerous targets simultaneously. It may be too good in other ways, like its absurdly high damage for a non-power weapon, but if it was actually afraid of elites at all it wouldn’t be so brainless to use. I can’t even engage 4 curshers with any other weapon besides the heavy sword in a choke without taking damage.
It would not be a problem if it was that classical vermintide2 axe with single target profile. But because we are playing darktide and axes somehow became pseudo power swords it actually is kinda absurd.
Just get rid of brutal momentum after crafting is fixed so we can properly balance this abomination.
It would still be a problem in my view because the actual armor buster weapons like the thunder hammer for example, is NOT capable of doing this. And this is PURELY because of stagger. And what of the inevitable Power Axe? Will it need to have big stagger to compete?
It looks like they did make it so light attacks stop stunning ragers so at least those are actually fine now. So let my revise my opinion here. I would now just say the problem is purely, and very narrowly, Executors. Maulers/Crushers. It might still be OP but this is a very narrow nerf that helps give power weapons and chain weapons more of a home in the game in my view.
Eh… yes you can, just CC them first, or use a gun or a high mobility melee weapon. I tend to run Caxe on Zealot but when there is more than one rager coming at once it’s either braced time or use the ult for stagger. I don’t even stagger attacking ragers afaik outside weapon special.
As I said this might be part of it, but I don’t use it like that (or I don’t think so).
Illisi, DS, Taxe, Power maul, crusher… TH if you also use ult maybe…? Or any ranged weapon on Zealot using ult? Chain weapons are obviously bad at that situation, but engaging multiple Crushers without using at least ult is so far outside the realm of “real play” that it’s kinda pointless IMO.
I’ll pay more attention to stagger next time I play Caxe Zealot. Caxe is probably one of the best weapons to duel crushers, but I feel like it isn’t the meat of what makes it strong.
Like i get what you are trying to show here and in this context, yeah its obviously kinda absurd. But realistically you are not fighting 10x crushers solo. Remove brutal, slap in 20-30 trash and 4 crushers and its suddenly lot more inconvinient to deal with this and then the stagger makes a lot more sense.
Sure you can also balance it the way you describe but i don’t think this would truly fix what makes axes strong in my opinion. They would still remain absurdly good generalist weapons even with lessened stagger.
When it comes to something what poweraxe should be like well … i’m not even going to speculate until i see what fatshark has in store.
I agree with you that it is very strong. Btw the tactical axe has the same: Heavies, push attacks and special attacks staggering elites to oblivion. However, I’m not okay with it being nerfed. Bring up the under performers, don’t nerf the overperformers. Give that high elite staggering value to the chainaxe for god’s sake, so we can push attack a rager from its attack animation like the Taxe/Caxe! Also give the chainsword pushstab attack this possibility etc…
I don’t think the combat axe is an op weapon that needs a nerf. If it is really that powerful you will see most veteran/psyker use it as well, not just Zealot. Solo 10 crushers in the meat grinder is one thing, and actual combat is another thing, you got a lot more to consider.
In my opinion, it’s just a very good weapon that fits Zealot’s role, a weapon that is able to deal with most situations, so you can enjoy your game as a melee specialist.
You have to get a weakspot heavy hit to stagger them out of an overhead, but it’s also not a stagger in the general sense because it doesn’t really build up. I consider it more of an interrupt than a stagger. Other than that, I actually find it’s easier to deal with large groups of crushers with a tac axe; you don’t have to try to land heavies or try to stagger them- just light attack spam the f outta everything as usual.
Combat axes have better stagger than ogryn clubs, they just can’t knock into heavy stagger state. But you can’t interrupt a Rager with an actual attack when using a club, you need to slap or push.
I can see I have perhaps done a poor job explaining my position so I will try to be more detailed. The Combat Axe is not heinously OP, it doesn’t totally invalidate anyone else. However it DOES trivialize the game to a large degree and is pretty brainless to use. Spam light attack. Maybe push attack something. Weave some heavy attacks in on heavy targets and specials as an interrupt/stagger. Its easily the best weapon in the game because there is no enemy it cannot handle effectively and quickly and safely. Every other weapon has a lot of drawbacks by comparison. The only thing that really outperforms it in any domain on Zealot is the Heavy Sword and that only does better against horde enemies. Otherwise the Combat Axe is king. This leaves little practical room for other weapons to have a niche. Before now this has been generally agreed on but what to do about it is unclear. Many people say one of two things:
ditch brutal momentum or weaken brutal momentum.
Make the weapon weaker against armored/heavy targets
But both of these nerfs seem like they might feel quite bad. Plus, in my view, power weapons and chain weapons should be the weapons best positioned to kill heavily armored elites and ragers and the like. Not mundane weapons. But mundane weapons don’t need to be garbage for this to work.
This is why the Combat Axe being able to take out 10 crushers without taking damage is a problem. No other weapon on Zealot can realistically do this. Especailly not the weapons you would expect to be able to do this. The Tactical Axes are just remixed axes and suffer from the same issue described above. The Power Maul is obviously a special case with its AoE stun.
I use the ult in all cases since that’s “real play” as you say. The TH cannot do it, in fact I took less damage in my attempts using the Chain Axe when I did a series of weapon vs 4 crusher fights in confined spaces where chokepoints could limit the enemy to some degree.
I am aware I took unnecessary damage here. I don’t use the axe that much, it bores me.
These tests above and many of the ones I am referencing below are tested on Magistrati Oubliette. This test was 1 mauler, 1 dreg rager, 10 scab melee bruisers and 30 poxwalkers. I’ve done a bunch of tests here because it has a number of choke points that simulate more real situations and prevent the enemy from being thrown all over by more ‘bonky’ weapons giving more realistic TTKs than the open floor of the psychaneum.
What I am proposing as a change is very simple.
The Antax remains as is with brutal momentum available
This leaves the weapon still quite effective against mixed hordes, even though it clearly doesn’t need it to be effective in mixed hordes as demonstrated in the linked video
The Antax has no damage values tweaked
The Antax has reduced stagger against elites and specialists.
Currently push attacks can stagger ragers out of their attack chain
Only the special attack should be able to do that
The special attack should still be able to stagger maulers
heavy attacks should not, by themselves, be able to stagger maulers
Heavy attacks should not be able to stagger crushers
special attacks should not be able to stagger crushers
This will result in an added gradient of difficulty for Axes against heavier and heavier targets. Requiring more usage of the (very generous) mobility on the axe. This gives more space for weapons with more ‘elite oriented’ and ‘armor busting’ damage space to shine. I do not believe the Antax would be able to solo even 4 crushers easily without the enormous stagger it possesses. The thunder hammer and chain axe and eviscerator all cannot solo 4 crushers without taking damage. Admittedly I almost got it a few times with the Chain Axe but its really really hard. 3 I can do.
This, in my view, would bring the Combat Axes simultaneously more in line with other weapons without significantly impacting their character, feel or blessing pool. Ultimatley by weakening this weapon’s stagger against elite other weapons immediately become more valuable in their niche as elite sniping tools. Also i think its ridiculous that a normal human can quickly poke a crusher and send it reeling.
My demo above also shows that removing brutal momentum does weaken the combat axe but doesn’t really dramatically alter its versatility or ability to handle mixed groups. Its just about as effective as it was before.
I agree with this! The sapper shovel works this way, and it’s fine
Make it the same on Taxe btw
It would make them less braindead. Like you would actually need to adapt your attack patterns to the enemies you are facing
I still would like specials to stagger crushers though (again, just like the shovel)!
Btw most enemies have a stagger immunity for a short while after having been staggered, so you can’t reliably chain stagger a crusher with shovel/Taxe/Caxe specials
I tried a different combo w/thrust to superchunk down bigbois, but the lack of brutal momentum wasn’t obvious until the horde events came along where they tend to surround you en masse, then it became violently clear that brutal momentum was doing so much fn work. I swapped back to the brutal momentum axe and I’m not looking back. I’ll give up the bonus to biggies to make it 10x easier to handle groups.
Also, light attacks vs the dreg ragers (maniac in general) do like 2x more dmg than heavies. That’s actually almost the entire reason I swapped from tac axes, because combat axe lights absolutely demolish maniacs. You give up a bit in regards to flexibility, because tac axe lights does great vs everything, but I also want to save my fingers from bleeding.
A+ for effort, I’m just not seeing it. Your proposed changes would make the weapon weaker, I was just trying to point out that this isn’t really the reason I’m personally running it. I am all for anything that makes me run PS on Vet instead of a mundane axe.
Also, take note that there are actually very deep stagger mechanics (with damage values, resistances, breakpoints, and modifiers on enemy attack type) in the game and it might be pretty hard to balance this with the +power mechanics currently in the game. Jsat made a video on it if interested.
Apart from that, yeah the change would be good to make a potential future anti-heavy weapon shine I guess. I still maintain my stance that they should re-fix the light attack doing more damage against Maniacs thing and Caxe wouldn’t be the instant top pick BiS on Vet and Zealot anymore. It would give it an actual well-defined weakness and all.
Edit: If you consider that light attack should do around half as much damage to maniacs than currently, the weapon starts to seem to have an actual place in the balance and not the current outlier with no downsides and only upsides.
Need a TH that can one-shot them I guess. BTW this is a kinda useless side convo, I probably wouldn’t be able to do 5 and Caxe is the best Crusher duelist weapon I’m not arguing with that.
I mean yeah. It’s a CC weapon. Man they should just double mauler/crusher/Bulwark health for T6 and “CC is bad” problem would be solved in the instant. Main problem with Crusher (the weapon) is that you get a lot of ghost/phantom hits with it that can make you lose 100 health, otherwise, I’d probably have mastered it by now. At least Ogryn Power Maul doesn’t have the same problem. Sorry for the side tangent.