That’s the primary thing to take into account I think, that the problem lies within the enemy design rather than the weapon design. Crushers are essentially far more manageable chaos warriors, and they could stand to have some unique counterplay. I’d enjoy the idea of needing to remove the armor somehow, with heavy penetration weapons being able to circumvent that to some degree (like a plas rifle for example, or brain burst. An explosive like a grenade can lob its helmet off, which could also make better use of environmentals like barrels). Chaos warriors were a challenge because they could really only be damaged on the head, even by weapons with high penetration, and weapons that didn’t have much armor pen still couldn’t do much damage to the head, if any. There needs to be something like that for crushers, but more dynamic.
I remember they fixed it, and there was so much whining on forums that they reverted the change… ^^
Everyone is in love with “rampage” on heavy sword because it gives +50% damage against hordes… Which the weapon is already very good against. Once they are in front of a couple more elites than they can handle, you can always see them throwing stun grenades all around in a panic. That’s how you recognize “rampage” heavy sword users vs “deathblow” ones. Ignore hit mass blessings are absolutely gamebreaking, you just have to pack your enemies in a blob with good positioning and then you can just stagger/kill the whole group making their sheer number irrelevant
well, when it comes to maulers there’s not a good chance you’ll be making good use of brutal momentum unless they’re mixed in a horde for you to keep proccing it. You’ll still likely have to mash through the horde to deal with the maulers with heavies bc lights just don’t do much dmg to them. I don’t really use heavy swords so I can’t really give any input on that part of it.
That’s when I was still using tac axes and couldn’t give 2 fks about it haha. If they just swap the heavy and light dmg for maniac I think it’ll be in a better spot.
Yea x)
Currently you just have to restrain yourself from using heavies against maniacs, because they hit like pool noodles, it’s so unintuitive 
Charging up a big ass attack to end up doing a “petard mouillé” on your enemy
Chainaxe has the same problem its heavies do less damage than lights on a lot of targets
Yah it took a while to get used to…
and the chain axe thing is bc I think due to the bonus dmg from the “shredder” attribute which doesn’t proc on heavies unless you activate it.
I’m all for that for those enemies. But that would, without my proposed changes, still make the Axe one of the safest options while simultaneously making hammers worse due to their kind of mid damage to crushers unless literally built for it. Unlike the Axes the hammers really suffer from their low dodge count and that 0.6s swing speed so the longer the takes the more likely you are to get hit. That’s not the only problem, obviously, but its a contributing factor.
I used my ironhelm, since i’m just doing normal builds not specialized builds in my testing so far. I prefer allcomers builds for most weapons. Just to set some baselines basically.
And this is precisely the problem in my view. Mundane weapons SHOULD be starting to suffer against higher toughness/armor weapons. In the same way a lasgun or autogun does compared to a bolter or plasma gun. Their advantage should be mobility and general usability/efficiency. So either the axe stagger needs to come down or we need to really jack up the damage and probably safety of chain weapons and the thunder hammer. I haven’t started testing other class weapons yet.
They can do that too why not?
I recognize its not why most people run it. But the fact that you can deal with every problem without even thinking about a secondary weapon, while its also a mundane weapon, and the safest bar none, and pretty efficient while we’re at it…is the key problem in my view. I do want to make the weapon weaker (personally I hate the thing but my feelings are irrelevant, what matters is what is good for the game) but I want to make it weaker in a way that basically leaves all the things players like about it alone. Its a super strong and flexible weapon. It stays one. It just takes more work after the hypothetical stagger rework to deal with heavier enemies, which seems to me like a good thing.
The chain stagger isn’t relevant here because they swing so slowly.
Well that and it has pretty weak base damage but decent cleave. The chain axe is a weird weapon beacuse its lights are best against heavier enemies and its heavies are for hordes, but then the +Power blessings have weird interactions making Lights better in some cases (groaners, maybe others) depending on enemy density. I like that but I would not say its easy to use.
oh, so, so much. Even if brutal momentum was removed, the axes are still better than hammers in dps for everything except unyielding. A light attack from the hammer should baseline oneshot a poxwalker, you know, like the combat axe already can. It should also very easily reach into the 1shot range of non-elite dregs and scabs for lights, you know, like the combat axe already can, mostly because its attack rate is slower than axes with way less cleave. Sure, axes have much less ‘impact’, but that impact rarely makes as much of an impact as cleave, and in many cases actually hurts the dps of the hammer because it throws small mobs away, causing you to have to chase after them to finish them off (especially when they should’ve just died in 1hit anyways). The hammer really needs way more damage on its lights and more cleave damage on its heavies.
Oh, oh, oh, and and, wait til you see that tactical axes have better block cost than hammers, even though hammers have the defense stat. Take them in baseline and see how many hits you can take just blocking before your stamina is gone. Stam regen on the taxe is also sooo much higher, and more dodge distance, which makes it 5 times more effective defensively. The hammer is not only less offensive, but also simultaneously less defensive than even a tiny tactical axe.
Honestly, I think the stagger is what makes the Caxes so good with BM, not the damage. Your single target damage with the Caxes is great, but none of them deal all that mich cleave damage. However the fact that you still stagger all those enemies makes it a really safe weapon.
Hot take: The Caxes being good isn’t that big a problem since BM is an easily accessible blessing for all players. However its ubiquity on the axes takes away from their build variety, and lowers the skill floor significantly. I think that moving some of the benefit of BM to the base Caxes (to differing defrees based on mark) could help make BM less dominant among the axe blessings. Allowing the Rashad and Achlys to penetrate 2 enemies, and the Antax to penetrate three by default would make BM less essential on the Caxes. A nerf to the Caxes in some other respect that increases their skill ceiling could then make them more balanced without actually touching BM.
Since you mentioned thunder hammer,I want to say the problem is not on the axe but on the hammer.
Thunder hammer seems pretty strong on boss fight/unyielding enemy, but actually not a great weapon against crushers in actual combat. Because the self-stagger after the charged attack and terrible doge makes it more dangerous to use when facing crushers with other enemies. This is a problem that can’t be solved no matter how you change the combat axe.
For me, the more common situation is you see one veteran teammate delete those crushers in seconds with bolter, and the thunder hammer becomes quite embarrassing in this situation. Rather than tweak the combat axe I would like to see Fatshark buff the thunder hammer to the same level as illisi and powersword.
When I picked this up (many months ago - malice level) I was looking for it to have that swing radius that the 2h hammer had for Bardin. Long enough to keep mobs at bay if you keep swinging.
Couldnt get the hang of it and the odd time I’ve tried since I don’t like it.
Except you are usually not in an open, event field, like the Psykhanium, but in tight, cramped corridors, pressed against a wall. Also, have you considered that you being able to deal with them might be a skill issue? Meaning that after your hundreds of hours playing the game your skill is at a point where your ability represents maybe less than 5% of the playerbase? And if used by an average player or the majority of players, this result would not appear?
Arguments from skill are always bad arguments, because there is no real way to reduce skill as a factor. You can have the most OP thing in the history of the world, if only less than 0,0001% of the player base can use it… then it makes for neat videos detailing how this is ridiculously broken, but also the vast majority of users will never experience that situation.
Wouldn’t it make more sense to compare stagger values? And if compared, are they really that much stronger or could it a simple fix of a minor reduction be employed, if even necessary.
And the Thunder hammer / Evicerator is better at deleteing crushers, Mutants, Hounds, Monstrosities… the Tactical Axe and Knife are better at defense and exploiting the crit build of the Zealot.
Even the Catachan sword is better at dealing with Ragers.
Combat Axe isn’t king… it is versatile, but depending on your ranged armament you might not want to carry a Combat Axe. Like for example… the weakness of the Two Handed sword against crushers is easy compensated with a Braced Autogun and the special of the Zealot… or a Bolter…
The Combat Axe allows you to use other weapons, that otherwise underperform, in the ranged department.
Sure you can trivialize content by running the most cookie cutter loadout, but where is the fun in that? Most people in these discussions have sunk so many hours into this game their skill level is far beyond the skill of the average user. You don’t have to argue to nerf things that help average players just because you believe things are getting to easy.
If things get to easy, use less optimized gear. We, or most of us, have essentially, gone into a territory where most of us have gear fit for a Tier 6 difficulty.
Wut?? How? 
Yes. And my testing began in my new range, the beginning bridge section before the dropdown of Magistrati Oubliette which includes signficiantly tight corridors. In my testing using a highly standardized method i found the Axe to be able to, on my first attempt, to safely defeat 4 crushers. While i almost died with the thunder hammer and chain axe (and every other special weapon, excluding the crusher).
Well then it would be quite a surprise, then, if someone like me was unable to kill 4 crushers without almost dying in tightly enclosed and chokepoint rich terrain with the two weapons i have put the majority of my 700 hours of game time into. The thunder hammer and chain axe. I have put less than 5 hours of game time into the Antax, and none in the last 100 hours besides these tests. Yet i was able to take on 8 without taking any damage with the Antax, solo. It was that easy.
The max number of crushers that can attack a player is 5. If you are completely surrounded. This means i am maximally exposing myself to both a longer duration of risk and a higher chance of being surrounded. But the axe’s quick attack speed combined with access to easy stagger allows me to safely keep away these 10 crushers on the worst possible terrain. It is technically uncomplicated to do so. Though not easy. I can pull it off in those conditions in 1 of 10 tries. I can always clear it without taking a second health bar hit in almost every other try.
The hammer and chain axe both took me around 50 attempts to achieve a no-damage result against 4 in highly favorable terrain.
Its incredibly easy and i am demonstrating that using a standard method. I hope to release that method and all of my testing baselines this week. I am using an experimental methodology that is standardized and can be tested by anyone. But go try it yourself if you don’t believe me. Go to magistrati oubliet, from the far side of the bridge, spawn 4 crushers in the antichamber and 1 poxwalker. Shoot the poxwalker with an agripinaa slug to aggro all crushers simultaneously.
Thats precisely what i proposed.
Let’s start with that one of the swords has almost twice the damage than its two other cousins. The MKIV has about comparable heavy attack stats to the Combat axe with a 60/250 damage profile. So its somewhere a middle step between Tactical Axe and Combat Axe. Damage wise its actually better than the Two Handed sword. But the IX THS has the better move set compared to the Catachan MKIV (and about 10 more damage on the light attack).
The MKIV deals full damage to Maniacs. Maniacs and Unarmored is like its “thing” (Infested to a lesser degree). The first heavy attack does 400something damage to a weakspot on the Maniac.
The parry shares this “preference” for armor types and you can use it to block the ragers attack and damage them in the process. Long story short… it deals better with ragers because you can damage the rager while it has its attack animation going, where the Combat Axe needs to “defend” during that time.
Look, i am not making a case for the Catachan Sword here… i think the Catachan Blades are the one weapon I, personally, really don’t find a good reason to use (especially on a Zealot… on a Veteran maybe, because they don’t have the Two Handed sword). I am just saying that due to the Parry Special you can actually “damage” them during their attack animation, which means you have an easier time dealing with them compared to something like the Combat Axe.
The Chain axe? Why are you using a Chain Axe? With exception of the Evicerator all the Chain Weapons are a Deathtrap in that situation. And even the Evi might see you unfortunately caught off guard while you are stuck in some crushers body. But the Chain Axe?
As for the Thunderhammer… how? Why? I don’t even have a good thunderhammer on my Zealot (because i don’t like them much, i prefer the Evi) and even i can three shot a Crusher. And all that hammer has going for it is a pure damage profile and a Tier 2 headtaker. (yes, its blue)
How did you manage to struggle with a Thunder Hammer, when you just have to dodge back, charge the special and attack, three times… and then you stunlock the remaining one with the 4th attack.
I am sure if you build a proper Thunderhammer you can get this down to a two hit or maybe even a one hit. Like if i had a 25% carapace damage bonus on my Hammer, it already would more than likely had been a two hit kill.
Yes, it would be. But we all have off days. Which is exactly why i argued against the inclusion of personal skill levels in balance discussions. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure.
I hate Thunder Hammers, i can’t play with them. I prefer light and agile weapons. I’d much rather take a Tactical Axe to the battlefield. Doesn’t mean that Thunder Hammers are bad, just not for me.
Guess it wasn’t a typo then. I was surprised at first and wondered if you meant the evi but apparently you really took that flaming pile of trash called the Chain Axe into a mission… It is like the worst weapon in the game due to the animation locking. No wonder you almost died.
That is a poor comparison. Every weapon is better than the Chain Axe. Period. Heck, i’d much rather play a Knife build in which i am only allowed to punch than play a Chain Axe.
And you still been playing the game for, apparently, 700 hours, which means you should know how to dodge, block and such. None of these are specific Antax actions.
I am surprised you fared this badly with the Thunder Hammer, but then again, i know i’d suck hard with it too. So i am not judging. I am also not surprised about the Chain Axe, because that thing is just made of suck.
But i do not consider either a valid comparison. Thunder Hammer is not reknown for its survivability. With a 2 Dodge limit and a -10% or more Dodge Distance reduction, it is poor for this sort of tests. Since you can’t block the Overhand strikes of the Crushers, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage.
And i also am assuming you are not using your Stun grenades. If you are however using your full kit, then we come full circle to me being extremely surprised you are having such a hard time. A grenade to open the fight dropped at your feet, to stun the crushers. Delete 2-3 of them while they are stunned, maybe drop a 2nd grenade if needed… and you should get out of this unharmed.
I’d also say that you don’t bring a Thunderhammer to solo a room full of Crushers. At least not solo. You split them between the group and take them down one by one.
Just like you shouldn’t be soloing a group of crushers with a Combat Axe, mind you. What allows you to solo them isn’t the stagger… its the Dodge limit and Dodge distance, helping you stay out of their reach, and to either side of their swings.
I really don’t think you manage to stagger all 5+ of them or even multiples with a single swing to stave off their attacks. So what results in you getting out of there unharmed is the difference in defense values and not the attack traits of the weapon.
And i am questing if its really necessary. If you had posted a simple: Combat Axes have 14 Stagger, where as, with exception of Thunder Hammer and Crusher, have like half of it… combined with a Stagger per Second analysis…
I think you would have a much better case. Showing that attacking 3 times with an Tactical Axe takes longer than once with a Combat axe and then pointing out that those three hits add up to the same stagger values as the Combat Axes… but that for some reason it doesn’t have the same effect on the enemy.
At which point it then could be a reasonable discussion with actual data. A simple “i tried to solo a bunch of crushers, and it didn’t work that well” isn’t very convincing to me, personally. Same is true for other claims along the lines of “i soloed XYZ easily”… i don’t know your skill level. I don’t know how good or bad you are. Thats not information that i can parse.
But i have now looked at the Stagger Values in the game, since my last post, and 14 seems a bit excessive, compared to the other values. Even the Eviscerator only sports 11. A tactical axe has 5 Stagger… meaning unless you can attack 3 times with it in the time it takes the Combat Axe to attack once, i would say that 14 is a bit much.
Consider the following:
→ You are testing in an environment with limitless space
→ You have only crushers attacking you, no faster enemies or chaff to throw you off
→ There are no ranged enemies firing at you while you fight
→ There are no disables coming after you
It’s not OP. You need to readjust your perspective.
It does basically the same damage to Crushers that the Eviscerator does but it doesn’t have body priority like the Eviscerator does so its much easier to consistently land headshots.
Because the guy in the back row can hit you over the shoulder of the guy you are hitting. If you get the timing wrong one of them will do a lunge and smack you through the other. They’re so big you cannot easily see the movements of any of them. With 4 of them in an enclosed space and with the 2 dodge limit and 0.6s lock time after powered swings you cannot effectively respond or retaliate without high risk of damage. I can three, maybe four, shot them with my ironhelm and yet I cannot safely do this consistently or easily. With the axe I can, its dead simple.
See above.
No, its the stagger combined with the low opportunity cost of using that stagger because of the high swing speed. The fact that I can reliably stagger via two methods both of which are fast and easy to pull off is the problem I am proposing. The high dodge limit and distance aren’t nearly as important.
That’s fine if you don’t like experimental data but I do. Numbercrunching is all fine and good until you actually put it to the test in real life and find out that its possible for the third crusher in the line to two-step no-clip lunge through the other two and smack your ass with a sideswipe without any warning. This changes the dynamic an awful lot. if I could effectively bodyblock 1 crusher at a time the high stagger value of the Hammer would make it significantly safer to use. But the opportunity cost of the self-stun is significant enough to make it unsafe to use.
I appreciate your post. Lets go point by point.
- Environment with limitless space
I was led into fighting 10 crushers in open ground after testing more narrow conditions. Open ground is far worse than an enclosed space as nothing really prevents you from being attacked by the maximum number of crushers. (5).
My testing protocol can be found here:
I started with 4. I found the combat axe so easy that i tried 8 immediately after in the same space. I then tried 2x5 (maximum that can surround you at once) to maximize the difficulty.
- Other enemies as a confounding variable
The antax has proven the best weapon, available to zealot, in all relevant circumstances. Adding more enemies would only make the other weapons preform worse by a greater degree than the antax.
- Ranged enemies
Of the weapons i have tested the combat axe has the best dodge distance and dodge limit and is thus least impacted comparatively by the addition of ranged enemies.
- Dogs, muties and trappers
As before the antax has the highest dodge count and distance outside of the chainsword. Thus it would be safest.
Every single one of the confounding variables you list favors the combat axe over every other weapon. You have actually proven the opposite of what you argue.
They also take time to activate special, got worse mobility stats. Eviscerator special atack makes you vulnerable, not a good thing against big blob of crushers/maulers.
Combat Axe isn’t king… it is versatile
You see? All things you mentioned above are very specific tools with some stat trades, you take weapon X to do Y, while you take Caxe cause of good mobility, cc and damage. Most of the time when there is a reliable work horse weapon in games, it’s just average at everything. There is no situations in game where Caxe fails you, and you are never at risk with it. While with the rest of weapon there happens tricky situations when lack of dodge distance/dodge limit or raw damage put you at risk.
If weapon is trash use a better one, if weapon is OP use underpowered one, so here are 2 weapons, enjoy 
There are also aesthetics and impact feeling factors make you want to use some weapon, but if it’s OP or completely trash you probably will not. Especially if there will be more difficulty tiers strong versatile weapon probably will be the only meta.
But it’s not a problem for Caxe, more like for 2h hammer and evi, especialy trash mobs “bodyguarding” crushers.
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