So yeah, I get that it would make it too cheesy to fight hordes on ledges, but it really is counter-intuitive that someone gets more invulnerable while performing a transition animation (Let’s not mention Dark Souls doors oppening here). So it kinda make a bad impression and ruins immersion a bit.
So here’s a suggestion:
Make them flinch more if hit while climbing. That would make it seem impactful while it may actually be the same speed. So there won’t be a ruined expectation, and enemies won’t look invulnerable.
Staggering ults should actually make climbing enemies loose grip and fall down. That’s not cheesy, because it’s the matter of spending such valuable resource like ult
I would also suggest: hitting or staggering climbing enemies slows them by just a small bit, so it falls into a strategy and not to a cheesing
But the third is optional. The first two are requested though. It would be a nice touch.
Climbing enemies are actually set to full stagger btw. So they take max damage while climbing or dropping down. But it would be cool to knock them off.
You can shove/shield punch enemies off a cliff edge, but not climbing enemies…
Also… 8 foot tall, fully armored men/rats/cows can make a 10 foot vertical/horizontal leap with no issues other than pulling themselves up slowly.
Meanwhile players will just do their best Stallone impersonation until their fingers get tired.
this game needs onscreen QTEs for dumb situations where you’re in peril but not incapacitated to get yourself out of trouble to make any of the above points remotely fair. It’s an egregious design oversight.
I am not against the idea of rats jumping high above - it’s with accordance to the lore and real life.
Although It took me forever to get used to the idea that chaos raiders and zombies are able to jump so high on their rotten legs. And they are walking on roofs too. Why?
it’s be really nice to have them behave differently than scaven, but well. We all know it is not going to happen, and those rotten decaying legs will always outmatch even elven feet
One of my favourite golden moments that happen because of this mechanic is when a CW climbs up the ledge, straightens himself up to a standing position, then I press ‘F’ and he ignores it completely because his climbing animation includes a few extra frames of standing there and peering into the distance.
I agree that it looks ridiculous. In the light of every other balance change in the game, would it not be wiser to drop this mechanic entirely? Let’s face it: hordes are not a problem to deal with even when there is no ledge around. Also, if your team was aware enough to assemble at the ledge to meet a horde, wouldn’t it be logical to actually grant them this advantage? Most people on QP lack this kind of awareness anyway.
In the end, it looks ugly and confuses players who spend career skills and pushes just to get hit out of a janky incomplete climbing animation.
rats can jump, sure, stormvermin wearing heavy armor? sure…
but rats in heavy armor + chaingun/flamethrower/backpack making a vertical leap to clear the entire ledge while even skaven slaves have to physically pull themselves up from?
Actually not that strange. If I recall correctly, the rats carrying Ratling guns/Warpfire Throwers are actually stormvermins in Vermintide.
Skaven slaves are just that, slaves. They’re weak, malnourished, trash tier sacks of rubbish.
if i was a 6foot tall man, and im so super leg strong, that i can wear full body armor and a chain gun + ammo backpack ala Predator, that i can clear a 10 foot vertical leap without vaulting. you best believe i can out run some malnourished children with rusty knives
This one’s weird; we can’t really compare human physiology to skaven in the first place, but Skaven are natural sprinters; wearing armor is totally backwards to what they’re meant to do and likely slows them down quite a bit, but if the animal is designed to leap you can probably get away with it. Cat’s do it all the time. Seems reasonable, lore-wise.
Back on-topic: @Mentis , you make some awesome points and I agree with you on #1. The additional animation would be a brilliant touch and would be a refreshing change of pace! It’d also provide a lot more feedback to the attacker, which is never a bad thing.
#2 sets me on the fence a bit; I’d only want that to be the case in the situation @OrsonMaxwell mentioned where they’ve reached the top and are fully visible to me. Otherwise, I’d hope they remain gripping because the ledge took the brunt of the blast.
#3 is sorta along the lines of #1, but I’d rather it not make an effects on gameplay. I flavor is all that’s really needed; they’re already providing the “strategy” portion by lieu of making themselves absorb more damage (as @SmokerT69 pointed out). They don’t really need another disadvantage to try and attack a raised position (plus, milling a horde on a ledge is already a cakewalk).
Norscans, and especially Chaos Warriors, are a whole 'nother breed compared to normal humans. Even the most mundane of northmen is far stronger than the usual Empire lad, for the northlanders spent their entire lives fighting for their lives amidst droves of chaos-mutated fauna, hellish landscapes that spontaneousely grow out of the ground and the freezing climate of their murderous home.
Chaos Warriors meanwhile are beyond mundane men. They no longer even need physical nourishment or sleep, their bodies sustained by the sheer acts of bloodshed and carnage. Their strength is at least that of a score of trained men, and their bodies are encased in plate forged by the Chaos Dwarves. Some are even given by the gods themselves as petty boons, their mastercrafted work making for easy movement despite their hefty appearance. Climbing towering ledges is very much an easy task for a form that is used to fighting the mutated horrors of the Chaos Wastes.
The raiders you see in the game are not rotten, though they are certainly contagious. These ‘zombies’ you refer to are in fact living human beings, though their sanity has likely degraded in some manner. The raiders are those of the Rotblood tribe that managed to withstand their numerous afflictions, accepting Papa Nurgle’s gifts with faith and relish. Locked in the plague-father’s rotten embrace, their vitality is raised beyond even the raw toughness of the usual northlander. The malnourished and haggard that make up the bulk of the rotblood forces are those wretches that failed to truly accept Papa’s love. Their bodies could not withstand the force of his blessings, and thus they degraded. Yet, unlike the other gods, the great Papa personifies humanity’s compassion and mercy in equal measure, and instead of outright killing these failures, he takes from them their pain and assures them that no matter their outcome, he will love them as he loves all his children.
You Talk of Nurgle with such love
I can only express that kind of admiration for Slaanesh
It’s a shame they took Nurgle and not the Prince. The game would be waaay more interesting…
But would probably rate NC-17
Forcing enemies to climb is a good tactic whenever possible to use. You just cannot forget to actually keep track of their numbers and your kill speed if they will manage to get up or die during the climb. Might have to add some pushes now and then if they are numerous.
The actual problem is the “waterfall” effect in both directions - up and down.
This comes partially from hyperdensity, partially from the fact that the game is allowed to spawn large number of enemies from the same point in a very short time, who then can move in a blob - including climbing.
At this point we can just accept that certain things in the game have to be regarded not as bugs, but features, simply because FS either is unable to fix them, or doing other things will be forever a higher priority.
Lesbi-honest, here, the Prince would never consort with Skaven; not worth his time and certainly not pretty enough to be enjoyable.
@Palesz I agree to a point; calling the “waterfall” effect a problem means it needs fixing, which I disagree with. If climbing was density restricted, we’d wrap right back around to what Hedge said about being atop a cliff making fights so easily winnable that it’s the equivalent of cheesing, introducing a whole new problem. The balance issues thereafter are so many it’s crazy.
Hyperdensity on the ground is an issue. Hypderdensity while climbing is a necessary feature to keep ledges balanced. I agree with FatShark’s ruling on that one.
If there was no hyper density applied to climbing enemies (or at all on the ground), it would not be any cheesier to deal with hordes as it would be when we camp in a narrow entry way and bottleneck them. If there was such a thing as persistent corpses that act as physical obstacles, this would further hinder enemy hordes as we can build a wall of corpses for them to climb over.
Point is, mobs can clip into each other and the player, while we cannot. We cannot physically dodge through enemies (except for HM), so there’s no excuse that the enemies can do this.
you try telling Leonidas that hyper density is a balanced feature when he fought the Persians.
Also, anyone above trying to defend vertical/horizontal leaps are realistic for the “heavy” enemies, you’re just making up dumb excuses and trying to point at lore. Kerrillian can’t even climb up to save herself from a ledge but a 300 lb Chaos Warrior/Cow will have no issues?
I can’t wait to hear the excuses if we ever get a warhammer game where we play Chaos warriors and we have to fight Banshees, Harlequins, Wardancers and Witches…
Enemy clipping is not a balanced feature, it’s poor game design.
The proper answer is, make proper collision detection so that they don’t clip into anything.
You want enemies to climb up or down cliff edges not be cheesed by players using Spartan bottleneck tactics? We have enemies with ranged attacks now. Give skaven sling stones and norscan archers, have them spawn with the horde and hang back shooting at the players while melee rush in.
Sling stones and arrows can be fired indirectly so players would be forced to camp further away from a ledge. On that token, give players the ability to scale walls and QTE to save themselves from hanging off a ledge. They clearly have the ability to do this IRL. Also give us the ability to deflect projectiles if we can “Parry” properly (well timed or lucky). That would make for some epic gameplay.
yea but their accuracy was nerfed, so if new ranged enemies just have poor aim but are firing en mass to keep our heads down (cover fire), that’s a fair tactic used in warfare. But again, this should only be implemented if the player has the ability to deflect incoming projectiles. A new weapon trait that auto deflects when holding guard could be viable.
