Climbing enemies

[JayJay]

@Para-Medic

I can’t wait to hear the excuses if we ever get a warhammer game where we play Chaos warriors and we have to fight Banshees, Harlequins, Wardancers and Witches…

I’m sorry, i need to satisfy my lore affection:
You talking 40k or fantasy here? I’m almost certainly sure that the term ‘Chaos Warrior’ is only used in fantasy, Banshees is used in both, so don’t know if you are talking about the ghosts or the Eldar screamers (well, the ghosts do that too), but harlequins are 40k only. Wardancers are fantasy, and witches is too ubiquitous a term.

@Para-Medic

We have enemies with ranged attacks now. Give skaven sling stones and norscan archers

Also, to be more correct to lore as well as to differentiate them from the already existing ungor raiders, throwing spears seems more fitting.

@Para-Medic

But again, this should only be implemented if the player has the ability to deflect incoming projectiles.

I’m honestly not against more enemy ranged characters, as it deepens combat and positioning even more (would be stupid of the Übersreik to just walk into a ranged ambush, they need to think of that). But you are right, only if implemented with at least some way of defense.

One idea could be that arrows could be blocked, but only under great cost. Maybe the same value an overhead has in terms of depleting stamina?

Also, you could adjust it to the different types of enemy ranged attacks, so norscan spears do take all stamina, ungor arrows take half, skaven slinged stones take 1/4 of it.
Stagger should always apply to not just ‘build BCR and be done with it’, so dodging is still viable.
Damage should also be adjusted like that, but then there is still the ranged aspect.

Spears should realistically have a very low range. Would also be cool to have new enemy types, a norscan whaler type of visual, let him wear a tooth-chain around his neck. He could also be an enemy type between marauder and mauler, hp-wise.

Skaven slave slingers would also need to have a limited range, as maybe a strong dude can throw slings with a devastating effect, but not skaven slaves. Their damage, even when getting through your stamina, should be very low.

@Para-Medic

A new weapon trait that auto deflects when holding guard could be viable.

Another trait only for that is a bit much methinks, but you could upgrade Parry to lower the amount of stamina depletion? Make a good trait to a very good one as a competitor to swift slaying.

I’m sorry for derailing this topic quite a bit…

[OrsonMaxwell]

@Torantolis

Hyperdensity on the ground is an issue. Hypderdensity while climbing is a necessary feature to keep ledges balanced.

Well they became necessary when the devs built their levels around that stormvermin-centipede crаp, didn’t they? At this point it’s a problem of “backwards compatibility” with poor decisions of the past, which is everyone’s pain, but it doesn’t stop being a mistake no matter how much time passes.

[Para-Medic]

@JayJay

I’m sorry, i need to satisfy my lore affection:

I simply said/meant if there was ever another warhammer game that is action based like VT. It can be either fantasy or 40k, so I just named off all the “lithe” eldar units I can think of off the top of my head. Replace with Wildwood Rangers and Sisters of Avalorn if it pleases you. Point was, if you ever had to fight them and saw them doing acrobatics, where’s the excuse that you can’t do the same if you were playing a heavy class character?

It’s the same principle here, heavy enemies can scale impossible terrain and perform feats of agility but the players cannot?

@JayJay

but you could upgrade Parry to lower the amount of stamina depletion?

I don’t understand? Parry already makes your stamina depletion 0 if you time your blocks properly. Heavy overhead strikes are reduced to 0 stamina drain if you time it right.

[Torantolis]

@OrsonMaxwell

Well they became necessary when the devs built their levels around that stormvermin-centipede crаp, didn’t they?

I’m confused: do you mean that they built their levels around having a lot of elites? Or specifically for patrols? Or do you mean that they built their levels around having a lot of elites climbing a ledge at the same time? Which part was the poor decision that is causing backwards compatibility issues?

I don’t think I can interpret enough from your statement to understand how it correlates specifically to hyperdensity being a worse gameplay mechanic than enemies going up a ledge one at a time. Or, did I misinterpret it and you actually meant there is a different solution than either?

Big Lore-to-Gameplay Rant, primarily for @Para-Medic

@Para-Medic

if new ranged enemies just have poor aim but are firing en mass to keep our heads down (cover fire), that’s a fair tactic used in warfare. But again, this should only be implemented if the player has the ability to deflect incoming projectiles

@Para-Medic

you’re just making up dumb excuses and trying to point at lore

Well, I think that if the anti-lore argument can be made one way, it can be made both. Having 100 sling-bullets shot at us wouldn’t be an interesting gameplay mechanic if it pidgeonholes you into a trend of “Take this trait/a shield to block projectiles or take damage, your choice”. It would, however, be extremely lore-accurate, yes?

Moreover, certain gameplay mechanics are just what they are… sometimes we can tie a lore-reason to them, sometimes we can’t. That’s the fate of all video games.

Kerillian not being able to pull herself up from a ledge could be justified all sorts of ways: too injured, blood-wet hands, too tired from killing 300 bad guys, etc. A CW, fresh to the fight, might be fine (and is also blessed by a god with magical super-powers). Moreover, a CW might not really be injured until we “kill” them… what if they’re really alive but just too injured to fight back any more? Not a gameplay mechanic, but a good bit of flavor for the fight that makes it more immersive.

In any of the listed cases, we aren’t trying to have lore dictate gameplay. We’ve been given gameplay and trying to justify it with lore. Hence our arguments for movement speed of Storm-Vermin and Skaven-Slaves, the tankiness of a starving Northlander, and the climbing capabilities of the Chaos Warrior (thanks to those who made those points above; an excellently written lore-bit, @Morrtanius ).

@Para-Medic

but you could upgrade Parry to lower the amount of stamina depletion?

I don’t understand? Parry already makes your stamina depletion 0 if you time your blocks properly. Heavy overhead strikes are reduced to 0 stamina drain if you time it right.

I think the implication is that only shields can block projectiles. As I’m interpretting it, @JayJay would prefer that Parry be made capable of blocking projectiles with a non-shielded weapon given that you block within the parry-window. I might be wrong, but that’s how I heard it.

Sorry for the tangent

[OrsonMaxwell]

@Torantolis

I’m confused

I mean that when you build a level, you should have at least some understanding of the game rules. If you put a ledge in, you must understand that it will be exploitable. Then when you see that players exploit them to gain too much of an advantage to your taste, what would be the logical way of fixing it?

1. Remove ledges
2. Introduce stupid-looking illogical climbing animation that would “balance it out” lazy band-aid style.

Or should I better rephrase number two to “refrain from fixing a stupid-looking illogical climbing animation and make it a feature”.

I say screw hyperdensity, screw stupid looking animations - fix what looks ugly and think of balancing it back by other non-ugly means.

[JayJay]

@Torantolis

I think the implication is that only shields can block projectiles. As I’m interpretting it, @JayJay would prefer that Parry be made capable of blocking projectiles with a non-shielded weapon given that you block within the parry-window. I might be wrong, but that’s how I heard it.

That’s exactly what i meant, thank you!

[Torantolis]

I am super afraid of where this is going. Please, forgive me ahead of time for the rant.

If the first logical step you’ve come to is to remove ledges, I think we’re going to have a fundamental disconnect on what makes gameplay interesting and fun. Terrain is a feature in nearly every modern game and it’s purpose is to provide situations/positions that are advantageous or disadvantageous, causing strategy and immersion.

Removing a terrain feature in order to prevent a climbing animation, such as ledges, means that we’d also have to remove things like little half-high walls, crates, and barrels (if we are following the logic of removing all “stupid-looking illogical climbing”). Enemies can spawn on top of buildings and jump down, so remove those, too. Enemies can spawn at the bottom of cliffs, so I guess no mountains either. As a matter of the vein of thought, why not remove anything that makes the game 3D?

Please forgive me if this sounds passive-aggressive, but I am totally lost as to why you believe a ledge, or even simply a crate, needs not to exist. In order to have a crate, a barrel, a tiny little staircase we can walk on, a table we can jump on, a fence post, a hole in the ground, a building, a cliff, or even a rock there must be a climbing animation and we must be able to deal with a climbing enemy.

As an alternative to playing a 2D game, that we happen to be first person in, we can add an animation for climbing to our enemies so we can be better immersed in how the enemy comes from all-sides at all-times… as though it were a large collective of rat-folk that had congregated to crash against us like an ocean wave.

A Vermin-tide, if you will.

That being said, I cannot agree with you more on how hyperdensity is an issue in standard gameplay and is something that needs to be addressed; I’m always glad to hear when a patch tries to help address it. I do not believe hyperdensity is a problem for climbing enemies as a game mechanic.

@JayJay glad to hear it!

[OrsonMaxwell]

@Torantolis

Please forgive me if this sounds passive-aggressive, but I am totally lost as to why you believe a ledge, or even simply a crate, needs not to exist.

I didn’t say that. I didn’t even say “remove all ledges”. Apparently the devs think there are too many ledges in their levels at this moment, so if they fixed the climbing so it looks somewhat natural - at least as far natural as it can be in a fantasy-based game - the game would become too easy. The obvious lame-arse way out of this is don’t fix anything, don’t change anything. That is my gripe with this and that is what I’m trying to illustrate.

[ZombieFan504]

Issue I’ve noticed lately with any climbing enemy or any that pounce or grab a team mate or myself is that there is a lag input to when you can actually shoot at it or kill it my melee. Not sure if its a server base lag issue but its definitely noticeable.