Chaos Undivided, Bretonnian Civil War, and the Battle of Middenheim!

Hello. In anticipation for the Winds of Magic dlc, I thought I would start a thread about future expansions we would like to see, expect to see, and/or hope for. Personally, I would like to see our motley gang of heroes involved in major events of the End Times. Fatshark could create a whole narrative about how they are the “unsung heroes” of the forces of order or whatever. Here’s some ideas I have:

It would be cool to see a series of missions in Bretonnia, fighting off vampires and skaven who are attacing the loyalist Bretonnians. There’s a lot of potential mission material: sneaking into a vampire’s lair, saving a local duke, messing up a ritual, etc. This would give us a lore-friendly excuse to fight the undead, as well as take us to some locations unavailable in our humble Reikland.

The undead themselves would consist of slow and weak, but durable and numerous. We could get fell bats which dodge ranged fire, necromancers which can summon zombies, and armored grave guard elites. A “hit and un” style chariot would be cool to. There is a lot of potential here.

It would alwo be cool to see a mission taking place near the final battle of the End Times, maybe as the last ever update! We could be raiding the back lines of the Everchosen’s horde - running into warriors from all four chaos gods, and maybe even some daemons. Tzeentchian sorcerers which can upgrade enemy troops (turn slave rat into clan rat, etc), Khornate champions which can hit through blocks, and Slanesshi berserkers which can debuff and disorient the player.

I’m looking forward to seeing your ideas for future content - the bigger the scope, the better!

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While cool V2 is not cannon unlike V1 (as far as I know) and I think FS said that they want/have to stay away from major event’s even dough the surely would make awesome KF and Deathclaw / Steamtank models worth waiting for.

About the undead.
I think Nagash raises them around the world at some point during the end times (late but before he allies with the forces of order) so basically you could find hordes of them easily.

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headless horsemen patrol monkaS

“Body’s armoured, just hit the he… Oh, wait”

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I feel like Undead and Greenskins could both be in the future of Vermintide. Undead could have a lot of really cool mechanics - maybe on hit giving you curse (just a little, that could decay over time), which would change up entirely how you fight them - hit-trading would almost never be a good idea. Greenskins . . . well, all I need to say there is Squigs and WAAAGH! Holy crap, hearing the WAAAGH! to signal a horde would be amazing. :smiley:

Beyond that, I would like to see the heroes travel a bit. We shouldn’t forget the Empire setting entirely, but the game has a huge appeal in actually feeling like an adventure. Let’s go down to the Southlands and see Karak Zorn and a Lizardmen Temple-City! Everyone knows I’m the resident Skink-monger, but even if there’s never a playable one, I would at least like to see a Temple City in the game. :smiley: Given that most DLCs have been about “go get this macguffin”, it wouldn’t be hard to explain. “Use our magic portal to go get a macguffin that’s far away” is actually less weird than “go into a deadly illusion of the past to get a macguffin”, IMO.

That said, new heroes are something I really, really want to see. Not a lot; I know they’re a lot of work, and it would compound on itself in a way. Of course, so does adding anything new that requires voice work. The absolute max I’d think could work could be three; and if that were the case, I’d want to see:

A Bretonnian - Could have Knight Errant, Herrimault, and Lost Son
Probably the most obvious, but the least interesting to anyone who isn’t a Bret fan already - not because there’s anything wrong with the idea, just that it doesn’t necessarily stand out in comparison to the existing careers. We have a knight and a Robin Hood-esque character already. Lost Son could at least stand out as visually more mystical, and maybe use spells.

A Skink - Could have Cohortian, Mist Runner, and Astromancer (I love this idea, talk more about it here)
A stretch in distance only, as Skinks can learn a lot of languages and are totally anathema to Chaos and Skaven. After a tense intro to the party (though I expect Kerillian probably would know what Lizardmen are about, Lohner too), they could be accepted easily and be the exotic member of the party. Astromancer lets us get other cool elemental spells, like wind and electricity and ice.

A Vampire - Not sure, lots of potential from the various bloodlines.
Hardest to justify in lore - I don’t think Saltzpyre would ever accept one, and literally everyone in the party has a lot of reason even beyond the obvious to hate a Vampire (Dawi will not tolerate them, nor Asrai, plus Kruber’s history with Necromancers, and Sienna’s likely to hate Dark Magic users for giving all magic users a bad name). But it could be really damn cool. I imagine them having only half of a “green” health bar at max, with the rest only being able to be filled via temp health from draining enemies or something. I’d love to see a monstrous Strigoi that could use giant claws to shred enemies. :smiley:

Beyond that . . . I don’t want a reinvention of the wheel. I’d like to see more weapons, more enemies, more maps, more pickups.

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Other random thoughts, but as for how to get Greenskins into the story; it really wouldn’t be that hard. Grimgor is in the World’s Edge Mountains, which are far from the Grey Mountains that the U5 are near; a warband in these mountains, tricked by the Skaven (it happens in lore), want to get a good fight and so go for our heroes. Nice, easy, Orcish.

As for units, you have interesting things like Nasty Skulkers, Squig Catchers, Shaman, Doom Divers, Night Goblin Fanatics, Squigs . . . Not to mention the various, perfect basic units to fill the regular roles, of Gobbos, Orc Boys, Savage Orcs, and Black Orcs. For Monsters you could have Giant Squigs, Rogue Idols, maybe even just a huger, tougher Orc.

Undead are a little trickier, because Nurgle typically hates them - but that doesn’t mean he wouldn’t use them. Necromancers are greedy, and they are known to work with the Dark Powers for their own game. I can imagine the Rotbloods/Skaven are totally planning to betray the Necromancer, they just want extra bodies (literally) on the front lines, and the Necromancer is probably likewise planning to betray them.

Again, they have some really cool potential for units - as chaff, there are zombies and skeletons, but you could also have Spirit Hosts and Crypt Ghouls. For elites there could be Grave Guard, Cairn Wraiths, and Black Knights (dismounted). Specials have interesting options out the wazoo; Necromancers, Banshees, Fell Bats, Dire Wolves, Bloated Corpses, Feral Vampires . . . And for Monsters you can have stuff like Crypt Horrors or Vargheists.

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@Imnrk

I’m a bit iffy on Chaos Undivided, as the current alliance the Pactsworn have are due to the similarities of the Skaven and the forces of Nurgle. Skaven and Slaanesh forces, for example, wouldn’t really have reason to team up.

However, I definitely agree that Daemons of Nurgle should be added as an enemy type at some point, most likely as it’s own expansion just like the Beastmen.

The Bretonnian Civil War, whilst interesting, would be difficult to merge into the overarching story, as the Vampires wouldn’t have any reason to ally with the Pactsworn.

If we’re getting Undead as an enemy type at any point, it would have to be either a Vampire Count or Necromancer throwing in their lot with Chaos (which, in the case of the Vampire, is unlikely).

I highly doubt we’re going to take part in any of the major events of the End Times. Vermintide has mostly only concerned itself with smaller-scale events, and I’d rather prefer it stays at that honestly.


@BizarreSalp

I’d honestly rather have co-op survival against Greenskins be it’s own stand alone game. While yes, any Orc can be convinced to fight against your foe with the right tone, as Malekith managed to convince Grimgor to fight against Archaon during the Battle of Middenheim, Greenskins are generally of the opinion that Chaos or “Da spiky boyz” put up a better fight than “Da humies”, and they often find Skaven untrustworthy even by their own Orc standards, so the chances of them allying with the Pactsworn, whilst a possibility, seems unlikely to me.

Plus, Greenskins on their own have so many units that Fatshark wouldn’t be able to fit all of them in for a single DLC. A separate game where the Greenskin roster could be explored much further is way more preferable, in my opinion.

While yes, Nurgle generally has a distaste of those trying to defy death, he has on occassion, as you’ve pointed out yourself, offered his power to the Undead or at least those with ties to the Undead, such as Heinrich Kemmler, Settra the Imperishable, and Isabella von Carstein (though, she was possessed by a Nurgle Daemon at the time), so the chance of a Necromancer allying with the Pactsworn is not impossible.

The heroes doing a bit of travelling is fine (and I encourage it!), but I feel it has to be within a feasible distance. Anything beyond the Old World seems too far away.

I don’t believe we should travel to Karak Zorn. Anyone but Bardin wouldn’t have any reason to travel there whatsoever, and even he is hinted to not be searching for the Hold at all.

A Lizardmen Temple-City, likewise. No reason to travel there (beyond grabbing X artifact), and if we did, it would feel very empty without any Lizardmen actually there (and it would take far too much work for Fatshark to create several units of the Lizardmen that would only be used on 1-3 maps).

The Pactsworn threat is in the Reikland, so it makes sense that most of our escapades would take place in that immediate area. People like Kruber and Saltzpyre would probably be reluctant to travel far across the world, leaving the Empire defenseless in the mean time.

New heroes are the safest option, honestly, as long as the hero in question would fit in the base game of course. Bold of you to claim that only 3 options would make sense though, and then two of them is a Skink and Vampire, one of the most exotic and exclusive races in the world, and one of the most distrusted and viled respectively. There are far more options, and we shouldn’t try to just restrict it to a finite number (though, I won’t act like all options are valid. There are indeed those that are obviously out of the question).

On a last note, I wonder what you mean by “reinvention of the wheel”?

Oh, I don’t mean those are the only potential options - I just think three new characters of any stripe are about the max that could fit. A Bretonnian just seems most the most likely to me, hence it being listed - the other two are just the ones I think would be most interesting, so that’s totally subjective (well, it all is, but that in particular). I would be genuinely shocked if we got a new character and it wasn’t a Bretonnian.

You’re right that Greenskins could be their own game, but I dunno if that will happen. Certainly could, but I just don’t know. At a certain point of adding enemy factions, there would be a big dilution of the whole “Vermintide” initial concept of the game, but it’s fun to consider when we’re going all in. Same could really go for undead . . . I think these two would fit most easily into the Vermintide formula, though. Daemons of Nurgle would be amazing, I’d love them, but to do them justice I think they’d also need to work a bit differently, less numerous overall, but far tougher.

When it comes to my thought of going to Karak Zorn, I just figure that it includes a lot of really interesting ideas. Firstly, Karak Zorn is just an open-ended mystery in Warhammer, but kind of a fan favorite. I feel that Bardin would certainly want to find it, even if yeah, it’s kind of a cover. I’m sure the relevant dialogue could be very interesting as a result.

Warhammer (and Vermintide) don’t exist in a vacuum, though, and the setting and game both embrace the general fantasy concept of being a band of adventurers - exploring lost temples and cities in a jungle (even a jungle itself) is a classic adventure story thing that we haven’t done yet. Dwarf Hold-themed maps are also very well liked, so connecting them all just hits a lot of fresh notes.

And while it is a long way, they’ve travelled other huge distances already, using the Skittergate to go to Norsca. I don’t think the distance is really an issue with the magic, the only reason they had to use the Skittergate was because there aren’t waystones in Norsca, but they could exist in the Southlands (since the Lizardmen do use teleportation, it’s probably something comparable to the Bridge of Shadows).

Fighting Lizardmen wouldn’t really fit at all, though, IMO - while you could justify it, they’re roughly on the same side in regards to the larger conflict, and it’s not like Lizzies would appear anywhere else in a hostile manner. I would imagine that a Temple City would be empty of living Lizardmen, and be overrun by Pactsworn, for whatever reason. Or maybe the heroes are brought there by one of the later-generation Slann, and they fight their way through the Pactsworn to meet/save it and its last defenders, even if just to find out what the hell is going on. I could easily see three distinct maps; a Temple City, a trek through a jungle, and finally arriving at and going through Karak Zorn.

As for the “reinvention of the wheel” thing - I mean that I personally don’t have much interest in Fatshark making new game modes or fundamentally changing the gameplay. I would rather them just add in more variables to the existing system, in the way of maps, weapons, characters/careers, enemies, and pickups. Things that make for more unpredictability and variation.

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Well, there’s obviously a limit on how many races there are in Warhammer (and an even bigger limit on the races that are feasible in the scenario presented in Vermintide), but I don’t think 3 is the absolute maximum number.

Sure, Fatshark is already hard-pressed to come up with new melee weapons for Saltzpyre and Sienna, whom only have half of the weapons the rest have, and there’s not many unique gameplay mechanics left to explore, so I will agree that that would become an issue at 8+ characters in the game, but as long as we’re fine with more or less recycled content from previous characters already in the game, the cap on the maximum number of new characters could increase.

Daemons of Nurgle could still be numerous with Nurglings being the Daemon equivalent of Slaverats or Cultists. Anything above Nurglings, however, would have to be tougher and less numerous, I agree.

While yes, you could say that the U5 are “adventurers” in a sense, they are stalwart defenders of Reikland first and foremost, and their primary motivation is to stop the Pactsworn.

Castle Drachenfels, Karak Azgaraz, Stromdorf, we travelled to all of these because the Skaven threatened the safety of the Empire. Some obscure Lizardmen artifact in the Southlands wouldn’t be a direct enough threat to warrant leaving Reikland defenseless (nor do I see why the Pactsworn would have that big of a motivation to travel to the Southlands either?).

Even though travelling through a lost temple or a jungle is “classic” and something we “haven’t done yet”, doesn’t mean it’s something that we need to do. Going to Karak Zorn would also kinda ruin the entire mystery around it. Getting to the locations themselves is not the issue, it’s more the severe lack of motivation for both the Pactsworn and the heroes to do so.

I didn’t want to imply that we were going to fight the Lizardmen (even though some like Mazdamundi have a less than tolerable attitude towards outsiders), just that the Temple-City itself is defined by its inhabitants. It felt strange walking through Karak Azgaraz without seeing a single Dwarf either (one that was actually fighting the Skaven).

And about the whole “reinvention of the wheel” thing, I completely agree. I don’t want Fatshark to make any drastic changes either, and just keep the gameplay relatively the same for the years they are going to be supporting the game.

Even though I know many are excited about the upcoming Weave mode, I personally don’t have the biggest interest in it. I’d much rather have preferred Beastmen and the Weave mode to be their own separate DLCs, as that would have allowed us to get new content sooner.

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The thing that people usually consider with the idea of new characters is the voice-acting. Since characters interact with each other, the burden of weaving them all together would get more complicated the more characters are added, plus those new characters will have to react to new content . . . I think it’s probably not insurmountable, but it is a valid thought, since the quantity, variety, and quality of the dialogue is one of the things that gives it its charm.

The point I was making about adventurers is that the game serves to make US, the players, feel like adventurers. If having an exotic locale that would appeal to a broader group of people, while not breaking lore, could be done, there’s nothing but upsides to doing it.

As for motivation; that’s really not challenging in this game, that’s what I was trying to say about the mcguffins. I could give you a dozen potential plot lines that could lead to the heroes travelling to the Southlands, along with the Pactsworn. Every single DLC’s story justification has been very simple. The reason the heroes went to Drachenfels (an obscure place in lore) was because the devs thought it’d be cool and unique. The reason the heroes went to Karak Azgaraz was because they thought that going into a Dwarf hold would be cool and unique. Gameplay was the consideration here.

About Daemons of Nurgle, though - aren’t Nurglings really short? That was the main reason I had kinda mentally discounted them as a common chaff thing. I was under the impression that they were only like a foot tall, definitely under three feet. That might make them a bit too short to really work, since characters would have to look quite far down to hit them. Other than size, though, they would be a good chaff enemy.

I kind of feel the same way about the Weave mode; I think playing around the Weave effects could be quite fun, but the pre-designed nature of it doesn’t appeal to me (based on what I know now; I’ll certainly give it a shot and hope that it surprised me). I’d be a lot more excited if they kept the AI director and used weekly seeded runs for the leaderboards, or something.

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Yeah, voice-acting might become a problem, as it would exponentially increase as new characters are added. Perhaps Fatshark might need to cut down on that department when it comes to new ones.

I personally disagree, but I can see what you mean.

When I play the game, the first thought that comes to my mind isn’t that I’m an “adventurer” that’s out “exploring”, it’s that I’m a hero that’s hunting down the forces of evil whereever they decide to lurk.

While yes, the primary motivation for the developers to make Castle Drachenfels and Karak Azgaraz was because it was because the aesthetic of both of these locations was “cool”, but the in-game motivation was that the Skaven were lurking there and posing a threat.

The Skaven were looting potentially dangerous artifacts in the former, and were overwhelming the Dwarf Hold and thus breaking one of Reikland’s line of defenses in the latter.

But this random Temple-City in the Southlands? I’m not that sold on the idea.

Sure, as you’ve pointed out plenty of times, it can be justified by looking for some “macguffin”, but I find it very hard to believe that both the Skaven and the Norscans would travel all the way to the Southlands to get their hands on something like that.

And for it to tie in with a trip to Karak Zorn as well? I just don’t see it.

Again, this is just my opinion, and I can completely understand why others would want a DLC like this (Lizardmen are one of my favourite races in WHFB too), but for me, it just doesn’t make enough sense.

Yes, Nurglings are small, and that would pose the biggest challenge if they were ever added to the game, but it could work. It could pose some new indirect mechanic to the game where one of the group has to take the role of looking solely down on the ground and handling the Nurglings while the rest defend him.

The main thing that bothers me is that the Weaves aren’t randomly generated. Sure, there’s always going to be a different modifier (although, there’s only 8 to choose from given that there’s only eight Winds) and a different objective, but the map layout and objective is going to be the same everytime for that specific Weave.

I can understand it makes sense when you consider that there’s going to be leaderboards for it as well, but it would be nice if there was a casual option where it just randomly generates the map layout, modifier, and objective.

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@ Temple City idea: That’s fair, of course. Always pleased to see another LM fan. :smiley: Dinosaurs ftw!

When I first started playing Vermintide, I knew almost nothing about Warhammer. I got the game and enjoyed the crap out of it; all I knew was there were the standard fantasy trope characters (in that context, Witch Hunter is the most unusual one, lol). After a month (I think) I got the DLCs, and I didn’t really pay attention to the stories; for a long time, it really just felt to me like the setting/lore was just there purely to justify being a party of adventurers saving a city, exploring abandoned evil castles, avenging dead townsfolk . . . So yeah, that was the initial viewpoint I had. Dungeons from Castle Drachenfels was one of my favorites, because if you are ignorant of the setting it’s practically like being a DnD party going into any generic dungeon - but the best done simulator of that either, because it genuinely was so moody and dangerous.

That led to me thinking of what other scenarios I’d love to see - exploring a jungle/lost temple was among them.

Nowadays, I’m a real WH lore junkie, I’ve collected a lot of the older game manuals for the lore tidbits, read a ton of the novels, am preparing to run a WH RPG game . . . My point is entirely just that the way I view Vermintide has changed over time, and from hence come my thoughts on what I would personally like to see.

But yeah, the fact that there won’t be randomness doesn’t make me too excited about WoM. I really think weekly seeded runs, with leaderboards for each week, would at least sound a lot more interesting. It’s always possible, though, that they will change it, or in fact tried it with randomness and it was awful for some reason.

On the topic of there being eight winds; if they ever wanted to expand it, they could potentially add High and Dark magic winds.

And on the original topic; this is why I would like to even see more pick-ups. It’d be okay if some were blatantly better or worse than current things (unless they just break the game). It’s cool to have two different types of meds, for example, but it would be also interesting to see some that are less/more effective. Finding worse things would mean you have to make do, potentially change up your tactics/strategy to adjust. It’d kinda suck if supplies were just ultra-rare, but it seems that kinda too often I get to the end of a run having full books, everyone topped off, bombs, pots, full ammo, and four of the most optimal bombs for the finale.

Thoughts on new pickups: some kind of heal over time item, maybe just an ale that gives you some temp health, or rarer stun grenades that stagger but don’t damage enemies, could even throw in some Dwarven mechanisms for the Engineer slot, or some spell scrolls.

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