Weaves changed a bit. And now you get 5+ mins just för completing the quest. Which is enough extra time to finish off the boss at the end.
You also get essence from doing normal games. Last time I checked in mid September, I think I had around 300k essence saved up… so I could just max any class now I guess.
And @flisker I’m pretty sure someone solo’d Cata FoW. Maybe I’m mixing it up, have to check through the forums.
Either way, any class can solo if you’re good enough.
If the player is bad they just die instantly the moment they are not hiding behind someone else, them rushing ahead does nothing to you except for the occasional boss trigger but that’s something 99% of the QP player pool isn’t aware of anyway.
The real problem is people who refuse to push, people who spend 5 minutes pinging a potion and people who fall 3 miles backwards from every single horde resulting in a 3x longer run and about 5x more chances to wipe.
Plus (over) aggression has nothing to do with the chosen career really, anyone can do it. The fact that you have a dash and/or can go invisible doesn’t force you to play one way or another.
Oh if only people played that way… 
I’m not one to shift blame but I can safely estimate that at least 75% of my deaths whenever I do decide to venture into the QP realm are the result of people bailing out of a fight.
I see a fairly thin horde, we already killed the boss, two teammates right behind me… so I push through only to realize, 5 seconds later, that teammates simply turned around and ran away allowing another wave of the horde to cut me off in a crappy spot 
This is also why, right after WoM, I had more success with bots than with random people. Bots are predictable, good players are very easily predictable… bad players are completely unpredictable.
I would always take a decent aggressive player whom I can rely on to push with me and back me up over all the players who are all over the place and simply leave you for dead the moment they see more than 15 enemies at once.
Had a group today that was camping in buildings and choke points against normal skaven hordes. Spamming the “come here” message… sure enough, boss pinned them in there and they all died…
Same group was so against killing patrols that they would all try and hide in a corner and get pinned during the horde which spawned while they waited for it to pass.
But hey, at least the host didn’t quit and let me solo to go pick them up again. They were so passive they might not even have been there. When I finish a 24 min game and I have nearly 600 kills, 40 specials and 70 elites. Well, what were they doing? The answer is, not much…
I think we’ve all seen exactly what happens when a videogame starts to become actually difficult…
The problem is that the difference between exceptional players who are either simply experienced enough or quick to learn and grasp mechanics and the average players (the absolute, overwhelming majority, the people who make you money and allow your game to exist) isn’t just something like 30% in their performance… it’s more like 1500%. And this gap grows exponentially with each new layer of skill that’s added to the game in the form of new mechanics, new enemy types etc.
This is why the forums were drenched in the tears of people who kept claiming that Legend 2.0 was impossible while others (very small minority) were clearing DWONS and Cata3 just fine. You can’t ever balance for both… sadly. Or rather… you could, if entitlement and insecurity didn’t exist and if people were simply okay with NOT being the best (as in playing on high difficulties, in their heads) in a videogame.
Good luck trying to convince the average gamerino that it’s okay to have 3k hours in Vermintide and still not be able to clear Legend. I mean 90% of the 2.0 doomsday posts started with “I have X hours in the gaim so like uh… wtf fatshark, revert everything or me is quit like right now.”
Is this not part of the game design? All these characters are prejudice hate machines and/or violent psychos. I don’t think the character design is ruining any runs, peoples expectations of others is. But the characters constantly threatening to kill one another should be a clue that maybe these ppl aren’t your allies, just enemies of enemies.
This all seems very blatant and by design, not to mention effective.
They were too busy hating on the toxic Elf who pushed forward clearing 90% of the enemies and then they died to the remaining 10% 
It’s called not being ready for the given difficulty but that’s too toxic to even think that, let alone say it out loud or … the most toxicest of all toxic - dare to give them advice.
Yea, but that is not really the case here. Which is why I linked the 2 vids in the first place.
I disagree, those are just different classes and variety is good. You don’t want all the same and all bunkering down next to each. That kind of gameplay is boring and also impossible when playing hard enough content.
The main issue OP has here, is the nature of QP, you can get insane players or complete noobs, so it can look super easy or impossible.
If you want to compare classes you have to do it when played by skilled players not randoms in QP with unknown amount of skill in high difficulty.
**QP’s are frustrating because of players not the classes. You can play Shade very well and also have happy party **
Weaves still suck super, super hard, you’re not missing anything 
Absolutely not. People can’t even solo normal Cata runs. (which are super easy compared to FOW) I saw only Bio doing one run and that’s with Q-Hammer slayer, hopping thru it.
But I found out that Cata FOW is now much easier, because BW is bugged and you can just burn CW’s… that’s just sad. Why can’t they revert these broken patches…
You are correct. I confused the world first clear thread with solo clear.
None the less, any class should be able to solo Legend right now. People think certain classes are weak, like RV. But in the hands of a skilled player, that RV shotgun build is gonna be out killing the BW passive playstyle. Just like everyone complained about WS and bio rekt a BW with it.
I also find it funny how shade went from, “omg broken please revert all changes. My power fantasy is gone to, holy crap, shade is so over powered”. Give people some time to get the changes down and the game suddenly becomes much easier.
I kept seeing people hate on the poor old RV up until the release of FoW where it finally became undoubtedly clear that the class was a hard carry
Not even gonna mention all the “zelot bad” posts on Reddit.
To be fair, the spawns and roamers on beta were much harsher, health pools and stagger resist too. DD is a good example of this, because of how their lack of CC/AoE clear wouldn’t allow you behind the Hordes/Elites because you would get stuck and die.
Now Cata is a lot more predictable and safe, so that playstyle is easier to achieve.
I’m disheartened and a bit puzzled by the recent direction and some of the posts in this thread.
@Kitten OP states that some classes able to give players a feeling of solo-skill are ruining QP experience for others and now we have people actually saying that it’s the other three people on the team who are at fault and not the rusher-soloer.
The other three players need to keep up, or handle hordes properly, or rush through the game too or stop pinging potions and so on. People are even saying it’s not even the classes, but rather players that are able to solo ahead.
Could it be possible that higher skilled players who steamrolled ahead have left weaker players exposed and as such soured the QP experience for everyone on the team - ( themselves included as they’re also annoyed) ? Could it be possible that as a skilled player fighting somewhere in the distance you are ruining QP in exactly the manner described in the OP? Could it be pretty self important to think the other three players should change to suit you rather than adjust your own play as a higher skilled player to help the whole team?
If you’re joining random QP with strangers and expecting them to conform to your own expectations of the match - either by going slow and steady or rushing ahead - you’re in for a bad time.
MY challenge to those really good players here who are joining QP is that it might be a good idea to stick with the team (even if you can solo) and maybe help everyone have a bit better run?
Otherwise you’re doing exactly what the OP states, and souring the whole thing for all people involved.
I am just saying that if there is a group of 4 players, and one of those have to move out from them to get rid of some incoming threat (archers, specials, pull boss) and rest of the team gets suddenly massacred, in their eyes, because the glass cannon that would not be able to tank anything anyway left to do specials… then it is not class or maybe not even guy who split kinda problem.
It’s not the class because any class can split and people are splitting in QP with all sorts of classes for various reasons. Good or bad.
It’s not 100% bad call to split since sometimes it’s the best call to make.
So what one ends up with as an answer is the players, it’s the player who splits at wrong time or fails to get rid of incoming specials or boss etc. And that’s just how QP goes. Solution to that is lower diff or adding players from QP to friend list/discords.
Also OP claims that it’s such a big problem no matter who joins with these classes, because if very good player joins, then he will carry hard and rest of the team feels useless (which is pretty rare in Cata, since there is not many people doing solo Cata, actually nobody asfaik, saw only Bio doing one run) or the more common situation where inexperienced player just gets murdered and the whole run gets much harder or they wipe.
I just disagree with this idea of “wrong/problematic/solo-style class” because it has more options when alone and don’t want FS to nerf/change such abilities after these kind of posts and end up with some tank simulator in worst case scenario, where everyone just sits on top of each other… that’s what you kinda get in high weaves and man, that’s the worst experience I’ve ever had in VT2.
Don’t get me wrong, there is a whole difference between splitting a bit to eliminate a threat and one player being a permanent green outline behind buildings in the distance. I don’t want players in a bundle either, but some players are using certain classes to surge ahead and this is ruining the QP experience exactly as described in the OP. If players can surge ahead, kill everything and carry when the team wipes why are they even in QP? because that playstyle lends itself very well to running with Bots.
I actually agree with the sentiments in this post completely. When one joins Quickplay, and finds there apparently is a (big) disparity in skill between them and their teammates, one should absolutely adjust their playing style a bit to help their teammates instead of true-solo-style ignoring them and forging ahead alone. If you don’t want to do that: Well don’t bloody quickplay then! This is ever a co-op game after all. Play with bots if you have so much skill and lesser mortals annoy you so…
Where my argument with @Kitten was however, is in the fact that he seemingly percieved that the situation of one person charging off was something caused by class design rather than player factors (such as skill disparity and gameplay decisions). I still am of that opinion. But I never felt that it is a justified playing style, especially not when it’s a case of player skill disparity.
Ahh now I get it. You don’t really want to discuss anything you just want to shout down any arguments so that FS might not get the wrong ideas from it and nerf one of your personal favorite classes. So you are just trying to cement your own biases with anecdotal evidence. But I would argue that there could be adjustments that might fix some of the issues here. F.E. give shade a movement speed aura so the group has an easier time to keep up with that player. This might also encourage newer players to ocassionally go back to the group to provide some buffs. Or even if not it might just help by accident. This is what I mean with design and balancing is not just relevant when you are comparing equally skilled players, because if a certain career is so dependent on the skill of the player this can ruin the experience for other people.
And also I never said that all the shades do that and of course if you have a good shade player that is fine and good. No one said otherwise besides you. But you just dont want to give any sort of credit to anyone else period. Because you are not talking to us you are talking to FS here which is kind of disrespectful.
And stop creating that slippery slope argument of anyone disagreeing with you to be in favor of all classes being the same. That is not the point and no one wants that, or at least not me (I mained Huntsman for a very long time so I definitely dont want all classes to be tanky).
Because Design influences (player) behaviour. That is what it is supposed to do and that is also were I strongly disagree with @TmanDW. If a newer player sees something in the talents that suggests cooperation that players mindset will be completely different than when he sees nothing of that sort. And newer player doesnt necessarily mean someone who just picked up the game but this could also mean someone who just has started playing shade for the first few times.
And @Argonaut14: I 100% agree with that. On the whole topic of different pacing: If you are quickplaying please look at what the team is doing. It’s fine either way the real problem is if you have people that want to take things slow and steady as well as people who want to rush at all cost in the same game. Thats a guarenteed wipe 100% of the time and this happens way to often currently. And from my experience I see some sort of radicalisation in QP where everyone just tries to impose their “correct” playstyle onto everyone else no matter what.
Fair enough. However, when a new player sees the class setup and figures “Alright, so I guess I should play away from my team all the time to use this class to its fullest potential.”, this player would be wrong. I believe we both agree that, even with Shade, the optimal strategy is not to be away away from your team as much as possible, no? Well, then we must also agree the decision to run away like OP describes is due to the wrong assesment of a player, caused by inexperience with the class or Vermintide in general. Not nescessarily with the class itself!
If you then want to argue “Lets change the class so it steers new players into not making a mistake.”, I kinda disagree with that one as well. I must admit I actually never play Shade myself, but I don’t have the impression that there is something inherently horribly wrong with the class as-is from my experiences playing with them. Most players will figure out how the class is best used instead quickly enough anyways, and changing her class design might end up destroying her unique playstyle for people who like playing Shade.
To new players I’d say: “Can’t carpet the world. Wear slippers instead.” Adjust yourself to the class, and learn from mistakes you make. Don’t try to force external factors to change to accommodate yourself so you don’t need to learn and adapt.
But I think we are now getting to the core of the issue here. Of course there are people that just dont get it or make mistakes and all of that is fine and good. And I don’t want to “carpet the world” nor do I think that would be the way to go. I dont play shade either and in general I don’t care to much about the class itself.
For me the main point is that having a shade on the team can have an enormous impact on every other players in the team just because it can swing the game wildly in any direction. I wittnessed a ton of games where inexperienced shade players caused a wipe. There is no other class that does that to the same degree. Every other class or bad player you can carry to a degree but a bad shade can spell doom on any party just be running of triggering a patrol/boss etc somewhere so far off that no one can do anything about it. The high risk/ high reward situation would be okay if it wouldn’t affect the rest of the team as much. And just to make it clear yes bad players will to that with all of the classes, sure. To me shade is especially problematic due to her high move and invisibilty which lets her get to places no other class can access. And in addition, since shade is melee focussed she HAS to split off. Other class canons rely more heavily on range and therefore are more likely to stick with the team.
And the same is true at the other end of the spectrum where a skilled player (and it that case this goes for Zealot as well) just melts everything away on their own and just turns the game into more a walking simulator for the rest of the team. That case is IMO not as problematic but still is to me an issue of design caused by the fact that there is classes that are so self-sufficient or have a lack of synergy with the team.
My apologies, I didn’t mean to imply you wanted to carpet the world, it was more what I’d say to the hypothetical newby.
As to how a single player can make or break a run: I agree, actually. I just disagree that it is as much due to the class chosen as some people seem to feel. A bad player not using their class well will be a millstone regardless of their class, and a good player can trivialize a run regardless of their class choice as well. Sure, there are some classes objectively a little more or less powerful than others at the moment, but I feel that that difference (in quickplay maps) is not as big as some people seem to find it. In Vermintide 1 there was hardly any difference between “classes”, and you could still encounter the same situations as described by @Kitten.
I guess I feel this way since I usually have about the same succes rate regardless of which class I play once I get its playstyle down, and I see a huge variance in the effect different teammates playing the same class have in my Quickplay runs as well. This leads me to believe it’s the player and not the class making the difference. I must concede on Shade though since I only completed exactly 13 Legend games on her for the “Complete Legend with all classes” challenge back in 1.4 or so and haven’t touched her since…
True. A good shade will make all elites and bosses trivial. A bad one will be like having one team member less and running a deprevation deed. But I think we can say the same for BH now.
Personally I think there’s nothing wrong with a class such as this as long as the skill level is high it’s a fair trade off.