Careers that go solo ruining QP experience

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Gameplay Feedback
1

EDIT: This is about how the playstyle of these Careers alters and effects the playstyle of the other people in the group, in my opinion, making it less fun. Not about what’s balanced or not. Playstyle and enjoyment.

While some solo capabilites are needed, and over extending for objectives/banners etc are needed, some Careers are just playing almost solo, and it makes removes the teamplay completely.

The only way to counter it is for 3 people to play really tanky Careers, as anything else won’t be able to do it’s job on Cata without a proper grouped up team.

While their survival makes them useful for doing solo things, people are just using it as an excuse to play solo most of the time, leading to frustrating gameplay for the rest of the team. Either that or the survival has given them the impression that it’s the correct way to play.

This wouldn’t be a problem if they weren’t the most picked Careers in QP. It’s reached the point where I’ll play HM/WS, just so I won’t get a Shade in our group that will ruin our experience, for more reasons than one.

Main offenders for this are:
Zealot
Shade
Slayer 2H Mace Q-spam (somewhat)
Handmaiden (somewhat) - not sure why lots of HM’s do it tbh

Shade: Elf is my main, and Shade atm is completely broken. Not only does the Stealth on Backstabs and double Stealth on Ult make her extremely OP, it also gives her the survival to just run off alone and solo every Elite. The 30% move speed on Crit promotes this playstyle even more. Even though her killing power is ridiculous and she has an unnecessary amount of versatility, the playstyle is the worst thing about it, because while she’s off doing all of that, it leaves the rest of the team stuck in a corner or kiting forever, just trying to survive while she kills everything while invisible/fast enough to avoid everything.

Still not sure why no fixes have been done to her as she’s even more OP than Zealot was pre A+F nerfs.

Zealot: While he’s definitely less OP in terms of survival and killing power, he’s still extremely tanky with lots of mobility. The problem is that he’s only tanky for himself, and doesn’t really offer anything as a frontline, and tends to kite a lot more than other frontlines. That and still being able to BoP down Specials better than most Special killers means he’s another unnecessarily versatile Career. He’s just way too strong to be that tanky/mobile at the same time.

Slayer 2h Mace spam: So he’s only on this list because most of the ones I’ve seen tend to sprint ahead killing everything because the Q spam/macro is ridiculous. Other than that he’s fine if not underpowered compared to Shade/Zealot. Outside of the 2H spam build he’s pretty decent. IMO he should always be the strongest melee though.

Handmaiden: I think this just comes down to people playing it incorrectly as there’s no real reason to be off solo as HM any more than you need to be. Seems like people not moving back towards the group after using her Ult.

Battle Wizard: The reason she’s not on this list despite being busted with the Kaboom! Talent, is that she at least promotes team play. Needing a frontline and being able to help stagger the frontline with her Ult.

This is also an argument to keep green circles too, so we can see which Careers are doing over 70% of the teams damage done. It just doesn’t seem fair that most of the kills are done by one person playing something OP. BW and Shade are broken beyond anything that has existed before, even the old Huntsman 5 second Boss killing. :sweat_smile:

I’m not really bothered about things being slightly OP or just strong, but every group in QP has one of these Careers in soloing the game.

A big point here is that if you start a game in QP playing something that isn’t built to play with people playing something in a solo manner, it leaves you feeling a little useless. E.g. Pyro with 1-2 people running off solo is just a blockanddodgemonsterx.

2

If you have bad experience in QP then it’s because you got inexperienced players, not because someone plays Shade.

15 Likes
3

Thanks for reading and responding to one sentence in my post!

4 Likes
4

Actually I read the whole post.

And I don’t agree with the point that you’re making.

You can “solo” with any class.

9 Likes
5

Then you’ve misunderstood my point that solo playstyle is promoted and sometimes preferable as these Careers.

E.g. running ahead and clearing everything as Shade. You can try this as WS/HM if you want, but you won’t have the same killing power/Survival- the backstabs passive inherently promotes a solo playstyle.

1 Like
6

Well yea, as Shade with insta kill backstabs, player should take advantage of those skills, but that doesn’t mean “solo” playstyle, running away like dummy. If that is what you are seeing in pubs then again, it’s inexperienced players, not the class issue.

12 Likes
7

That’s quite literally the best playstyle for her. As an experienced elf main I run off, kill all of the ambient Elites and clear anything else, then when Hordes/Elites come I can float around my team and then when I have Ult or find my chance I run away from them, get behind the Horde and clear everything because of the backstabs and killing power. My team is pretty much there to be bait so I can kill everything.

We could even talk about Fortunes of War, where Shade can solo the majority of it with 3 people tanking in a corner, unless they’re running Battle Wizard who can do the same from range. I’ll take a wild guess and say that this is the playstyle of most of the Weaves too.

After that it’s back to killing all of the ambients before my team can reach them.

I do the majority of kills and damage, mainly because of the movement speed on Crit and the insanely fast killing power/anti armour.

I’d actually say it’s less safe to stay with your team as Shade, as you’ll get focused by AoE Specials and have Elite swings dragged into you. It also makes the movement speed Talent useless.

8

How dare other people play in a manner that is fun for them and not how you decide is best.

8 Likes
9

I don’t agree. I’m here just to say my opinion, honestly I don’t want start an infinite (even if interesting) discussion.

First thing: I hate nerf in general. Currently I feel that the balance isn’t so bad: nothing is unusable and nothing is totally broken. There just are some careers overshadowed by other ones.
For this reason I think we must start to buff these “”“weaker”"" careers. If every time that there is a balance’s problem we nerf the good things, the game will always be more flat and boring.
Do you know because to win high waves people play BW + three tanks? It’s not their fault. It’s game fault. Nerf after nerf, and increasing the difficulty with WoM entry, we have so many weapons that just “bounce” against hordes. The feeling is terrible, it seems you are beating a wall with a spoon. But this is just an example (and in general, before someone says “git gud”, I have completed almost every challenge).

Anyway:

  • Shade: she simply does what must do: kill bosses and elites. But honestly, when a Shade joins in my QP, I think “good, we won’t have problems with bosses” but I think too “damn, we will have a career to protect and not that gives protection”. She’s the classic glass cannon with pro and cons.

  • HM: “dodgin let you go through enemies” and “BCR” can seem a little bit… cheesy? But this is the only HM advantage. If we want nerf this to prevent she rushes too much, we must give her another ability. HM is the classic crowd control career, like Merch and WHC, but we always know that they have both offensive and defensive skills, that help theirself and the team. HM has just survivability.

  • Slayer + 2h Hammer: that weapon is strong but risky, and Slayer is probably the only one that can use it well (maybe with FK). I don’t talk about QQ, I don’t use it, but apart this, Slayer + 2h Hammer seems very very balanced. He just does his work: stagger. Not well as Shields, and for this reason hammer has also a good armors damage. If must I choose to buff or nerf Slayer, without doubts I pick up the “buff way”. Slayer would need a little bit more toughness.

  • Zealot: he can seem OP at Legend, but totally not at Cataclysm. His “best” weapon (A&F) has very few stagger power and it bounces against enemies. Moreover Zealot, with WoM entry, is much more squishy. His best build doesn’t run damage reduction. This means that, even if he has a very good tHP regen, it’s enough a little mistake (or bad luck) to take 4-5 hits and die!
    Honestly I have played a lot with A&F Zealot, I could be considered an expert, but A&F behavior at Cataclysm is leading me to try a “staggering” version with 2h Sword.

  • BW: I need more experience with her, but honestly I don’t feel that her “infinite dot” is so strong against bosses and armors (and mostly super-armors). Anyway she needs some tanks to play well, she can’t do everything by herself.

Anyway, as written above, there is so much to say… but honestly I don’t want to start an infinite discussion. I hope my opinion has been “enough”. Good continuation.

3 Likes
10

You’re right. One person should have more fun than three people.

PVE games should be inbalanced because it’s fun for the people who play the OP Careers.

I’d also point out that this is a co-op game, so the solo playstyle which I don’t like is pretty much inherently against the co-op teamplay.

11

There’s a possibility that the “weaker” careers need to have a more defined role too, in addition to removing the ability of some classes to do everything.

Battle Wizard, although overpowered due to the DoT, does have a weakness vs super armour - she has to take CW seriously and let others kill them, even more so with Flame Sword, but this is quite a small weakness really and doesn’t under-compensate(?) for many many strengths.

This is the kind of thing I suspect the OP is alluding to when they’re talking about a tweak or two - Zealot can currently use BoP and be a special killer, has anti armour, good vs hordes and generally tanky. There appears to be no real weaknesses and as such it makes it easier for people to play as a YOLOSOLO and be successful.

I might add that BH Ult+Crit vs bosses is OP to the point of Shade Bossdamage Backstab used to be.

I don’t play shade, but I do see Shades with little regard for the companions blazing through games.

I disagree that Shade is a glass cannon, as it appears she can simply get out of trouble so fast and easily that it’s mandatory to have a Shade on FoW because it’s such a playstyle that iradicates much of the problems with a lot less risk. There’s no coincidence that a lot of the FoW Solo Clears are Shade either.

Big Balance Beta 2.0 soon™ might move classes closer to an even playing field, but at the moment I’m rolling my eyes that we’ve been through the pain of WoM/2.0 to end up with a discussion almost the same as some of the OP class discussions of 1.6.

Zealot OP, Shade OP, HS lacklustre, RV lacklustre, and so on…

5 Likes
12

Kaboom! is either bugged/overtuned right now, and can pretty much melt super armour. The longer DoT actually doesn’t feel as good on Cata. It’s better on Cata+ (Weaves/Twitch etc).

BH really depends on the player for me tbh. With Shade it’s easier to do what she does, but good BH’s that can reliably land all of the Ult headshots etc are few and far between. He is really strong though, but not on the level of the other things I mentioned imo.

I agree with everything else you said though.

1 Like
13

In some cases its not so much the career that makes them so versatile its the weapons such as hagsbane being able to get your ult back up extremely fast on shade / handmaiden or dual dagger and axe falchion being able to mow through everything. Probably the only career where its not the weapon that makes them like that is battlemage.

1 Like
14

Yes, I agree. But I don’t see problem with it. It’s same with Maiden for example, you dash, kill this, kill that, dodge dance around, solve the problems, pull boss etc.

This is the part that we disagree about.

To provide some evidence, you can look at this for example :

Snyx is playing the Shade here, he is doing very well and if you look at the scoreboard, he got 11.5k damage without boss dps, I got 10.6 as footknight!, Rhun is random QP guy, very good pyro would surely get more damage than FK, got 6.1 and Akrum got 7.3.

Even here it is not the case at all, that Shade is like trashing everything while rest of the group is doing nothing. I have nearly same damage as the Shade with FK.

Again, not at all.

Here is the FoW :

Again you can check the scoreboard.

Actually I got only better damage then Ironbreaker… but hey, maybe I just suck :smile:

There is no scoreboard for weaves, but a lot of time Maiden works better than Shade. But I think weaves are irrelevant, it’s just horrible overall.

TLDR: I don’t see any huge issue with “solo” style class like Shade. Especially after huge nerf it got in 2.0

  • But… I think that there is indeed bug after using ult, that next few hits are also crits. I don’t think that it’s intended.
3 Likes
15

I’ve started playing HM just so I don’t have to play with Shades. I know they don’t HAVE to be morons, but every single one I’ve played with since 2.0 has been a moron.

1 Like
16

I’m talking about Quickplay, not Cata+. Can’t see his playstyle in that video anyway.

Also your FoW video displays a very passive Special killing playstyle. You even Ult’d a Blackrat Horde from the front. Precisely not the playstyle I’m talking about and I would argue that it’s less efficient. You’re also playing with a BW who is no doubt topping damage with Kaboom! An example with BW which is also broken isn’t helpful. So your video didn’t really disprove my point.

My point is not about anyone being good or bad, it’s about the Career promoting a playstyle which allows it to go solo, whether the player succeeds or fails at that, and how that effects the enjoyment/playstyle of the other 3 people in the party.

You’ve been lucky not to have seen anyone playing with this playstyle if you honestly haven’t. Pretty much every time a Shade joins my QP they’re doing it, and if me and my friend play Shade we do it.

17

Well the first vid is QP, but you can’t compare very experienced Shade player with some newbies in QP, that makes no sense if that’s what you mean.

That makes the difference, because if you have team of 4 similarly skilled players, at least in games I play, you won’t get Shade with 90% of dmg while rest is just baiting. I never saw that happen in any game basically.

And there is kinda always need to split from the group when playing harder games, for various reasons, so that kind of class is usually needed.

I probably see it, but have no problem with it, because that is what Shade does, as we seem to agree.

And if Shade is lets say going to deal with some long range specials and splits from the party, then 3 other guys should be able to hold on their own and deal with the horde or boss.

It is ok to split from the party in certain situations.

ps: There is prolly quite a lot of f-ckups in that Cata FoW, I was pretty tired already, but still I would not be able to do like twice or triple the damage to make Shade look like it did all the work while rest was just slacking.

2 Likes
18

Just because Shade has the option to yolo away from the group to backstab stuff, doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to do it. Flisker’s FoW video showed exactly that; He didn’t do that, and they did well in Cata FoW as a result. (He even ran off once with the spawn, and got downed, proving this point even more.) You complain about Shades running ahead, and Flisker’s point was that that isn’t a good strategy, and he gave you recordings to back that up.

You somehow argue that Shades running ahead to kill stuff is bad gameplay (and we agree on that), but then you also argue that when Flisker says that that isn’t a good playstyle anyways on higher difficulties, he’s playing Shade wrong? If your argument is: “Some classes are too overpowered so they can solo ahead which is unfun.”, I’d say that that is very debatable on Legend and higher because that is dumb / ineffective playstyle that leads to wipes no matter the class. And if you argue: “Some classes, like Shade, are only effective if played in a run-away-from-the-group playstyle.”, I disagree because even those classes are more effective by staying near their teammates. Flisker’s videos back up that point as well.

1 Like
19

Yea, it is an option but it’s not a must. In some dangerous situation it might not be good move, in other it will provide faster clear of enemies.

Tbh, I think people generally complain about this “splitting issue” because they see someone split, they wipe after that, get tilted and blame the guy who split, no matter if it was good move to split or not.

I saw this complain many times, people arguing that best way to play is to keep formation. But that is just impossible in many situations and in others it’s at least not optimal way to deal with the situation.

3 Likes
20

Fair enough. Sometimes you need to split off. But that is dictated by the situation waaaaaay more than by the class. Sometimes the Shade needs to split off, but sometimes the Ironreaker needs to as well. @Kitten was argueing more along the lines of Shade being forced by their class design to always need to split off to be effective, which I (and I gather you as well) disagree with.

1 Like