This issue is not a career balance issue. This is the nature of multiplayer games, where there is any amount of ego at stake. Especially at lower difficulties, which you seem to be focusing on, the game is not challenging enough to force people to play “properly” for 99% of runs. This means people are going focus on getting through it quickly, while acting like they are carrying everyone else in the group. People who play like this on Cataclysm usually have a reality check though, and then come complain on the forums about how the game is broken.
I would suggest finding at least one other person to play with consistently and just doing private games if it bothers you to the point that you arent enjoying the game anymore. Because this is not a new issue, and it isn’t going to change anytime soon. Anyone who was around during the days of Pyro Beam Staff can attest to that.
I’m talking about a specific playstyle that isn’t displayed in those videos. You could literally make a video where you take Skaven/Crit Power with Swift Bow as Shade and only block until you see Chaos Warriors, then shoot them in the chest with your Swift Bow, post the video here and make the same argument you’re making now. It has no relevance.
The thread is about Careers that can go solo and do in QP because they can, but it effects teammates negatively. E.g. leaves them without a frontline or support for ranged.
Ergo: Bad playing, with overall negative outcomes, as done by inexperienced players. Which was Flisker’s point. And he also said that that playstyle wasn’t required to be effective with Shade, which equals the argument that the playstyle you are talking about isn’t caused by the class’ design as you argue. Flisker’s videos show Shades being effective and doing that without the playstyle you describe, and that’s what makes them relevant to this discussion.
I’m not sure I understood your argument, and I fear we might not be talking about the same thing or something. So, I want to ask you something to clarify your point, just to make sure I understand it right in order to have a meaningful discussion. Is your argument something along the line of:
“1) Some classes, like Shade, are, when played to their fullest potential, a bother to play with in quickplay, because they run ahead and kill everything. 2) Which leaves the rest of the team behind and weakened.”
I’d like to clear everything up and make sure I understand what you want to say before I reply more.
Some classes have mechanics which allow them to survive well alone and even benefit from being alone, so when in team situations are able to go alone, which leaves the rest of the team behind and weakened.
The problems that come with them leaving the team alone are that it effects certain ranged Careers negatively or forces a more defensive playstyle as one player is missing.
Green circles and whether the player is good or not doesn’t matter, it’s just the fact that they’re going off alone and think it’s fine because they can survive doing it or their mechanics suggest it’s the correct playstyle, or they don’t care. Not realising or caring that it stops others from doing their jobs. It’s a team game, and making Careers get too much value or be forgiving while solo doesn’t promote team play. They just have less motivation to group back up, where it’s necessary for other Careers.
I wouldn’t be raising it as an issue if these builds and playstyles weren’t prevalent in QP right now.
The focus on Shade is a distraction from my argument, because of how she specifically can spend so much time away from the team and benefit immensly from doing so.
Why do these threads always force me to pretty much quote my initial post throughout?
Alright, I guess I wasn’t far off then. My reply to that (basically what I said earlier reworded as well, by the way):
If those classes go ahead and and do their thing while leaving the rest weakened, and because of that the end result is negative (= more chance of wipes and thus failed runs), then it wasn’t the optimal strategy after all. If instead they would have (with the exact same character and loadout) not have run off, they would have ended up with less green circles personally, but more succesfull runs. Ergo: It is a matter of bad gameplay decisions, not nescessarily class design.
You even say something to that extent yourself:
It’s not that the class design requires running off solo, it’s that the player thinks it does, while a different playstyle with the exact same class (namely: not running off) would be better. So the problem is with the players, not the class designs.
Now, I guess we also have quite different experiences in quickplay as well. I haven’t encountered the classes you mentioned running ahead ruining runs very much. Mostly because - no matter the class - that kind of thing gets punished fast in Cata or even Legend.
Swift sucks vs SV’s, takes ages to kill Maulers, does nothing to CW’s … it’s only good vs monks/zerkes and hordes.
But Shade is not frontline, it’s glass cannon dps. It’s not meant to hold the line, which is why I don’t see problem with class like this splitting when needed.
It doesn’t benefit from “being alone”. If you split for few seconds to get behind horde that like IB taunted, just to insta pop some of them, that is not really “benefits from being alone”. It could be done quickly and get back to team, if the difficulty is high enough and requires it.
Shade does not have to be like 50 meters away from everyone to get some “aloneBuff” .
I’m still not sure I understand what you mean.
Maiden can hold solo much better than Shade, Merc can do very well, FK can do too, Zealot, WHC, BW, Slayer, IB. There is many classes that can hold on it’s own pretty good.
As for rest of the team, again if you got solid players then the Shade will split to kill some threat, which is beneficial for rest of the party. And if Shade lets say, gets some elites and specials and the other 3 guys still get demolished just by horde or something, then they prolly need to play lower difficulty. And this is not being elitist or as*hole, that’s just what it is.
I mean I could like literally 100 vids, with some hard content, where all 4 players are completely all over the place, because you just can’t hold the formation due to difficulty. And similar situations will occur in normal Cata also, and at that point people have to split and if 3 guys get rekt,they can’t blame one who split because whatever. Especially not when talking about glass cannon. That one is not going to hold chaos pat or something like that.
There is no immense benefit from being far from team that I know of, ult can be used to just slap elites from the back and get back to team.
Well ok, other classes don’t really have to split at all from team, Zealot doesn’t have to split, BW doesn’t have to split, Maiden doesn’t have to split.
I kept talking about Shade because Shade does have backstab mechanic that requires leaving team for a moment to get best out of it. Rest of classes doesn’t have any benefit from running away.
So… it’s the players making bad decisions, leaving team, team wiping, ppl not liking that scenario… solution : get a premade or play lower difficulty. Cata QP is hit or miss, sometimes you get awesome players, sometimes you don’t and everyone goes down during first horde.
You need to read my initial post again. You seem to be either misunderstanding or intentionally misconstrueing my points over and over again. You’re intentionally quoting me without context or ignoring it too.
This for instance, you either ignored or didn’t follow the conversation where I said that a video of this would hold the same relevance as your videos.
For that reason I’m not responding to you anymore. It’s either frustrating because you’re not paying attention to what you’re quote tweeting or frustrating because you’re trying to mislead.
Yeah, it can be both a negative and positive outcome. The killing power of Shade and Slayer can drastically reduce the amounts of ambient threats before they get merged with a Horde. So it can be beneficial to the team.
That’s why I said that experienced players are using this playstyle. They can run off and clear efficiently while alone.
There’s two issues here though.
Running ahead and clearing, which can sometimes be no problem, but I’m talking about the extremes of this scenario which I see daily.
Splitting off and going solo during Hordes and high density, which is bad, but those tankier classes end up surviving while others take all of the damage. Now regardless of whether that’s Shade’s playstyle bla bla bla, that’s literally the way she plays, and has that effect on the team.
The reason I’m even raising this as a negative experience is because of QP matches either becoming horrendously boring because you’re constantly defensive waiting for that person to come back from soloing half of the map, or with inexperienced players doing it, ends in a wipe.
And even if you’re queueing as a 2 or 3 person team, a player joining and using that playstyle drastically has an effect on your playstyle. You may not be equipped to face tank the amount of enemies you now have to, and you have no way of changing that in the match. Composition matters a lot.
I’d also add that because of the survival and killing power granted by these Careers, I can understand why they’re so popular in QP regardless of that playstyle.
If one player (even playing the most powerful classes) can run ahead in a non-horde or non-monster scenario or when stuff is otherwise without additional threaths, and kill all the ambients, while 3 others are lagging behind: There is a serious mismatch in player skill in that team, or you are playing Champion or lower. If one player being split off from the group of 3 others, and that results in the 3 others not being able to hold when a horde / monster is coming without the split off player, those 3 are probably not going to be saved by the first player sticking with them either. And killing all the ambients before a horde usually only makes the situation marginally easier to deal with.
It’s just that the situation of one running ahead going on a killing spree, leaving 3 others struggling behind, is one I hardly ever encounter on Cata or Legend quickplay (because regardless of the class the player running ahead gets in trouble soon enough, while a group of 3 regardless of class usually can pull through). And if one does run ahead of the rest and does alright while the rest struggles, you’d have a situation of mismatched player skill.
I’m also not sure what your most important takeaway point is. Do you feel some classes need a redesign? Do you feel players you encounter in quickplay are doing it wrong? What do you want to happen as a result of your post?
In the running ahead killing ambients scenario, mobility and ignoring the pace of their team and Specials as much as they can allows them to go forward. It’s not hard to leave before your team does as the Careers I’ve mentioned.
It’s not as much struggling as much as having to play more defensively than should be necessary, which leads to being less able to fill out your role and have a less fun experience. E.g. BH stuck in melee because the back/sides are never clear.
I wanted to talk about how my QP experience is being negatively impacted by people playing solo. Specifically the Careers who benefit from doing so, and, about how people joining QP as certain builds can effect the roles you already have.
If this can lead to different matchmaking, a change in the way people play, I’d be happy, but it probably won’t.
I did not understand the reference at all, because it did not make any sense to me.
While the vids linked are perfectly relevant in my view. Because they contradict what you were saying. Mainly about Shade being OP, getting all kills while rest is hardly doing anything.
I’m certainly not trying to mislead.
Reason you’re not responding to the last post is that there is not much room anymore, aside from something like “well yea… it’s the players… actually, not the class, you’re right”
Since, 1st, no Shade is not super OP if you compare to other classes built for full dps played by skilled players and 2nd, there are no classes that benefit from “being alone”, there are no “alone bonuses”. It’s just Shade with backstabs, which doesn’t require Shade running forward and leaving everyone far behind.
So you’re talking about extremes where player leaves the group in crappy situation and let the group die ? I just don’t get it, how’s that issue with the class and what solution would you suggest to fix it ?
Also, how is that not bad call on part of the player ?
I’m talking about a specific playstyle which allows them to do what I’m saying . You linked a video displaying a different playstyle to that and tried to imply that it somehow makes the playstyle I’m talking about not exist.
You argument from my viewpoint is this. “Here is a video of me not using the playstyle your thread is about. The playstyle you’re talking about no longer exists and is not real, because I don’t use it.”
That’s why a video of someone running Skaven Berserkers Swift Bow, blocking for the entire match and only light shotting Chaos Warriors in the chest would fit perfectly with your arguments.
It’s not the playstyle being described by me and that this thread is about. I don’t understand how many times I have to point this out.
It’s both. You’ve even said several time that Shade’s playstyle is to be away from the team at certain points of the match. Arguably longer than most other Careers.
You get 30% Speed on Crits, Invisibility on Backstabs or another after your Ult if you Talent it, and if you’re experienced this makes you safe enough to go kill everything and play split from your team during Hordes or high Elite density. All while dealing massive damage because you’re doing it from stealth. You can literally light attack a high density Elite Horde down while invisible. Other than Chaos Warriors which are easy to deal with anyway for Shade.
You then have extremely high damage on Bosses as well as being really good against normal Hordes with Hag/light attacking anyway. The versatility of the Ult, in my opinion, is what makes it OP.
What I meant by extremes was that they wasn’t just clearing Elites away from the group near to them, but intentionally running ahead and clearing Elites.
I didn’t say this: “So you’re talking about extremes where player leaves the group in crappy situation and let the group die ?”
He wasn’t saying that. He was saying the playstyle you describe might exist, but it’s basically a case of people doing it wrong, and he gave examples of people doing it right in his videos. That’s why the videos were relevant and not comparable to your hypothetical of swiftbow-wrongly-using-Shade.
At first I thought we misunderstood the point you were trying to make since I didn’t understand the answers you gave to our replies, and that’s why I asked you for clarification. Right now however, I get the impression you might not be getting the points me and @flisker are making. Can I try to clarify something for you so we’re on the same page again?
When the new talents were created, someone got the design documentation on how they are supposed to be played, created a build for that and then slapped on a few other talents to create the illusion of choice.
Everyone was celebrating FS for the new talents.
And now you start to grief that they don’t have to gimp themselves to the stagger meta because they can play alone.
You want the cake and eat it too.
Yes, that implies only certain playstyles are correct.
Specifically on Shade in QP and FoW. You can play the way I’ve described and it will work. Most of the times I’ve joined FoW the build has either been BW kills everything or Shade kills everything as a strat. In QP it works because it’s not Cata+, it’s just normal Cata QP.
As I’ve said before this can either lead to a good outcome with a good player or a bad with a bad player. My issue is with the fact that even if it’s a good player and they clear everything and make the run super smooth, it’s still unsatisfying to play with.
This is why I disregard the argument that it’s just bad players. It’s not just bad players. It’s good players that can clear everything too. Beyond that it’s mediocre/decent players that will have the same effect, of either causing a loss or frustrating gameplay while they can solo with ease, as described before, the point is that the playstyle is unfun to play with no matter who is doing it for what reason.
There are multiple playstyles that are viable including solely for Cata and FoW. I wouldn’t dream of playing that way on Cata+, but FoW and Cata QP aren’t that.
The thread is about how the mechanics of each Career mentioned, the playstyle of them and their benefit/failure, is effecting other people’s enjoyment of the game. Not about the playstyle being correct or not (which is debateable anyway because there’s lots of playstyles that work), the fact that it’s happening at all.
While several Careers indeed need tweaks, both in design and general power, I too think the problem described here is more question of player attitude than the Careers’ or builds’ design. “I can survive alone, so I don’t need to care about the others” seems to be the attitude of the players in question, but it’s not a healthy one. Even when a Career gets a (perceived) benefit from separating from the main group, the benefit is greatest when just on the other side of the horde, close enough to both help and be helped in the immediate situation. There are occasional situations where it’s more beneficial to take a couple of seconds to separate further from the group, to take out a troublesome Special or a threatening CW, but even then they should return swiftly to the main group. I don’t think it’s as much about the separation from the group, but how far these individuals go from the group.
While the Careers (and the particular builds) could be tweaked somewhat, I fear it would easily make the Careers too similar, and could also easily make them too weak in general - or effectively disable these playstyles completely. Or it might be done in a very artificial way (“you only get bonuses when near your fellows, or get directly penalised when far away”). I think a more effective way would be to tweak the “rush prevention” mechanics (i. e. disablers spawning on a lonely player) to be more severe, especially during already-intense situations.
Another way is social: Concentrate on group play, and when the soloers get in trouble, leave them there. If asked, tell them (honestly) that they were too far, that saving them was too dangerous. When the situation allows it, also try to call out their straying from the group. In short, I think they’re cooking a bad situation for themselves; let them stew in it. Experience is the best teacher. (Though of course, if they’re good enough, they’re less likely to suffer; I think that the people who are that good also know the value of actual teamwork.)
I agree that there are many playstyles, just saying that if someone plays in a way that doesn’t really work, team is wiping etc, then it’s problem with players and not the class.
And solution to that is to put up with it or get premade or do lower difficulty. Or another solution would be change how certain classes operate and I would not want to see Shade reworked just because some people run away from group and it’s causing frustration for other teammates, because mostly it’s just people not being able to handle the difficulty from what I’ve seen, not the class issue.
As @TmanDW pointed out, if 3 guys are unable to hold horde or boss or whatever, because glass cannon left to deal with other mobs, then it’s not issue with class, it’s the 3 guys having bad positioning, or in general not being able to handle the difficulty.
Well not sure what playstyle you are reffering to, I would have to see some vid, to know what exactly you mean. But in general I’m probably the biggest offender in terms of “solo rushing” kinda playstyle possible. It can’t get much “worse”. It might not be reflected in the FoW, because there is nowhere to rush there. That one was linked to point out the dps.
If someone runs first as Shade and kills as much as they can, then thats great, that’s what they should do if situation allows for it. But if you are talking about some extreme, where guy just completely disregards the team and runs invis thru half of the map… well then that is dumb and again it’s not problem with the class, it’s problem with the player.
I don’t think so, this useless troll tactic is not effective and nobody plays like that.
So what is this about ? I really don’t understand.
Way I see it, you are frustrated about QP players in Cata and you point at certain classes being the issue, while the issue are the players.
And no you don’t need 3 tanks if one guy takes a Shade, nor Shade, Zealot or Slayer removes completely teamplay.
It’s like nothing in the initial post makes sense.
Quotes:
Yes, and there is nothing wrong with it, that is perfectly fine. It’s impossible to stay together all the time anyway, when playing Cata or harder difficulty.
What is the rest of the group doing, if Shade is killing everything and moving forward to kill more… that doesn’t make sense.
If you are able to progress thru the Cata run so fast that that group of 3 other guys are just running and still can’t catch you, then I have no clue what is going on in that run, either those 3 are complete dummies or you are running some speed hack and triple damage mod.
If someone can just kill everything and progress alone then the whole team would just run straight to the finish and do the map in few minutes.
Basically you are saying there are 2 types of players, the good Shades that will destroy stuff and carry the QP or the bad Shades that will get rekt and the rest of the team can’t do crap because they are not so good and so that’s wipe…
But if you get 4 players that are at same skill level, you won’t get this situation.
