i would actually add to ogryn kit a feat that is opposite of the vets camo - while standing still u become an easy target and make most enemies focus on you
This is exactly the difference between good design and bad design. A feat like this would be opt in, so you yourself get to decide if you want to tank for the team or not. Not so that the other players get to decide for you.
Whereâs the rapid-fire staff with more than 15 meters of range, ala autopistol or brauto?
Itâs a bit hard to find and requires a macro but at least full auto exists.
Problem there is that ogryns already struggle enough as it is to survive aggro from ranged mobs. Especially so at higher difficulties, maybe viable if shields got the buff they desperately need to be viable at T4 and T5. It could also be made so it instead only draws aggro from melee mobs.
This here is the real answer to the gun psyker question. Give em a subclass/feat set to take advantage of psyker gun load outs.
I would just say theyâre creating bad habits, not playing wrong.
Thats the same thing
As a vet main, I agree, problem there is that BS thin air, horde in a box spawns are a thing. Also, even if they manage to stand perfectly still on an overwatch position to cover teamates, at T4/5 75% of their time will be spent beating off the trickle of 3 to 10 poxwalkers and dreg/scab melee mobs, and 1 to 3 ragers the AI director likes to send to keep them pinned and effectively useless at providing meaningful overwatch for the team unless a zealot or ogryn babysits them. During scripted horde battles as well, the AI director will also often always redirect a set amount of enemies to the camoed vet even if they set up prior to the horde spawning, so setting up a proper overwatch like you say is incredibly hard at regular T4/5, and nigh impossible at high intensity. On top of all that is that stopping is death if you are still moving once a horde hits, as enemies aggroed on you will remain so until they deliver at least one attack before losing aggro when you stop. God save you if they catch you while stopping from a sprint.
In high intensity or situations where the team is close to being overwhelmed this means that stopping swinging and dodging to switch to a ranged weapon to take a shot and save a friendly can often mean they will get dropped, if not outright deleted if they happen to be down to a single wound.
So more often than not if theyâre not packing regening bleed nades to buy themselves space to take shots they will get mauled if not deleted whenever they stop to try and peel off the 4 or 5 maulers, ogryn enemies curbstomping your ogryn/zealot.
Overall this means that unless youâve got CSGO pro tier situational awareness, only high mobility builds, even with camo thrown in, are only ever viable at higher diffs. This often results in noob and casual vets being stuck in survival mode from the get go if playing with assasin zealots and vanguard ogryns (because taking it slow and looking at your teamates every so often is for pussies). The only situations Iâve seen things work when the aforementioned are involved is if psykers or another vet go out of the way to being rear guard for them while he works on keeping the other two from getting deleted by ranged mobs, which in my experience is a high ask unfortunately in anything other than high diff premades.
As someone that does play gunpsyker builds, I am also going to contest this.
Thereâs no way it can reasonably be claimed the four available staves provide anything like the same range of options as are available with the guns and their various blessings and, indeed, they fail to provide options like precisely placing weak spot hits at distance.
I mean, you can say âWell, why not just play Veteranâ, but with the right talents you can stack a very hefty damage multiplier from warp charges (so no, damage output is by no means terrible) and the Psyker has other interesting class exclusive gear/abilities other than the staves.
So, I donât think the original analogy is a fair comparison.
Psykers choosing a build that uses ammo is something that the other players would have had to work with anyway if the player had picked any other class instead.
Camo Expert deflecting aggro on to everyone else is simply not equivalent.
Camo-vets are toxic nonsense that needs to go. Most of thee players who take it are so insanely bad at the playing that itâs miserable to watch.
Example: data interrogation event in Consingnment Yard, playing as zealot (though 95% of kills is ranged because i can and i like to delete shooters squads by dozens) with 3 Vets. Very soon it becomes obvious that all 3 are camo-vets. So as soon as i peek from cover - toughness immediately gone - every single shooters are targeting me, while all 3 vets are outside the cover. And what do you know - observing those vets was a bad idea: pew⌠polishing something in their pants for 10 seconds how cool they are âŚpew polishing something in their pants for 10 seconds how cool they are - like really? And donât even get me started on them being unable to survive for more than 1 second in melee 
If this trash feat for trash players remains unchanged - there should be a separate gaming mode âi want to hurt my teamâ just for them.
Well its a good thing that no sane veteran uses camo expert. You just objectively get way more mileage out of unwavering focus if you know what you are doing.
Camo Expert would not be troll if people took it with Covering Fire, which grants 15% toughness replenished to allies near enemies you kill with your gun, but unfortunately that talent is BUGGED and doesnât work so there is no team synergy currently possible for Camo Expert outside of extremely coordinated groups.
Covering Fire would be pretty much worthless even if it works; because the priority targets are very rarely going to be enemies near teammates(you know, snipers, gunnersâŚetc.; the sooner you kill them the better, and if teammates are close enough - they donât need help from vet).
Just removing Camo and replacing it with something actually useful when vet is the last one alive would have helped a ton.
Actually, change camo so it doesnât actually do anything for a patch or two and see how many vet noobs finally discover theyâre not even close to being as good as they think they are.
Since enemies focus you, you can stay behind one of the vets and get them to shoot through and hit him. 
Thatâs my favorite thing to do beside using crutchsword only and topping scoreboard(and telling them what a failure they are); vast majority of them never realized what happened (âhurr durr why my camo not workingâ) - because they, as usual, never pay a shred of attention to where teammates are.
If vets ever learned to put less focus on âmuh deepsâ(because they do generally no dps when dead or just generally distracted from melee mobs that they canât even pull out ranged weapon to take enough shots to matter) they can discover the ability to poop out grenades to save themselves.
Vets have two easymode in melee: crutchsword and near infinite grenade(almost never run out unless I use it to stagger monsters). Crutchsword kills the enemies around vet at a rate that competes with and often exceeds actual melee class, while grenades stagger away almost everything.
I run melee vet with duck and dive and I find this way easier to get in melee range of ranged enemies with than zealot(when ult is on cooldown), because enemy shoots in bursts and if you dodge a whole burst, you proc it twice for 60% stamina, which is almost infinite stamina as long as youâre slide spamming. Not sure if vet ever needs stamina recovery. Ult is only needed to recover toughness + pull out boltgun instantly to erase ogryn types, or pump out 30 rounds continuously.
Sure, but if I did that I would have to plonk the shield down and feel a bit useless. Maybe as I get better I can safely push forward more aggressively on damnation, but as it is now I am constantly looking for cover (and I love it by the way) to try to safely clear as much of the melee off my ranged buddies as possible.
I would much rather the vets have the ability to safely take out the specials than not though. I think the feat is fine.
Well said, I agree completely.
Thatâs a huge over simplification. Iâd argue that if you are running three of any class then you have an unbalanced situation. Itâs not the fault of the feats that you wound up in an unbalanced group. I get in the situation you mention a lot, but I just donât see it as a problem, because I also see the specials go down quite rapidly.
Blatantly false. I run with vets who are stellar at the game and who use it. Try not to lump people you donât know into one group to fit your argument.
If theyâre stellar at the game, they donât need camo.
Not false at all. Read it again - MOST of the players, it does not exclude not completely bad players . So you just proving my point. And yes, if vet player is at least somewhat decent at game - he does not need a camo feat.
I say literally the same thing the following paragraph. My whole point was that camo has a place in any vetâs kit, and a lot of the situations I, you, and others describe in this thread come down to a combination of bad teamplay, bad builds, and noob vets.
IMO, the real answer here is a 350+ shovel, I donât even know why people love the power sword so much, using it feels like ass, especially at T5.
camo has a place in any vetâs kit
Not really.
IMO, the real answer here is a 350+ shovel, I donât even know why people love the power sword so much, using it feels like ass, especially at T5.
shovel doesnât come close to the massive chunk crutchsword can regain in one hit.
As vet i am usually play with mg12, and i can clean room of 30+ shooters including elites and specials on the way in 10 sec while i use camo. But i always avoid groups of 3 vets, 3 vets groups are 90% wipe-squad if u are not confident that one non-vet guy can deal with melee efficiently.
Thats why i am on my zealot our squads of 3 vets has literally 0 problemsâŚ