Boss balance, or: Why must the Chaos Spawn be so much more dangerous?

This is something I have wondered for a while, but since in the last few games, the AI spawner decided we needed two chaos spawns on one map repeatedly, it makes me wonder: Why are the bosses so increadibly uneven in their power? Yes yes I know chaos spawn ez git gud lol, but if we’re honest for a second, the chaos bosses are much more dangerous than the skaven bosses and amongst all the bosses, the chaos spawn is, on certain maps in certain places, almost a guaranteed whipe when the horde spawns. It is the fastest boss. It hits the hardest. It has the ability to regen health. It can withstand the most punishment. It can disable one of the team mates. It is the most aggressive. It has the hardest to hit head box. I don’t think all bosses should be the same, but so far, while roger and stormfiend sometimes seem almost trivial, the spawn is always dangerous to the point that in some boss spawns, it is virtually impossible to fight it without getting lucky.

I don’t want to nerf bosses or buff bosses. But I do think the spawn needs some kind of adjustment to remendy some of the things he can do. Without staggering abilities, you cannot free your teammates. I think it should work similar to the troll, if you deal enough damage to it while it has grabbed a teammate, it should drop them.

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Everything is uneven in this game, including weapons, talents, traits, props and, as you said, bosses. Come on, bro, you know that not worse than me. Why use this beaten-to-death phrase? Just say it straight: Chaos spawn is hella OP and needs tweaking.

Also this. You can’t change anything without nerfing or buffing it. I mean you can, but what’s the point then if it stays the same?

I think, that Spawn needs 2 adjustments, with 2nd being optional:

  1. Bigger window between attacks - you can’t hit it with slower weapons at all, because it hits again and again.
  2. A 5%-10% reduced range on grab, but than again - that’s optional.

Otherwise I think the Spawn is fine. Yes, it’s still going to destroy bad players, because they will feed it again and again and not interrupt the grab, but I think it’s fun that bosses have different mechanics and slightly different strength.

Also its health regen can be reduced for Recruit - Champion if needed - why not? I mean this already has been done to the Troll, why not repeat the old scheme that worked?

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To me, the problem is that at this point, at least when playing public, it is kinda like this “Oh, meh, a roger comes. Oh, meh, a Stormfiend comes. Oh, troll, kinda annoying. Oh, a spawn here? GG.”

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Personally I hate Rat Ogres far more than Chaos Spawns. In a competent team the spawn will not grab you or once at most.
The rat ogre is far more in-your-face annoying when you play ranged classes and seems to turn around even quicker than chaos spawn when you melee him in the back.

Agree that Spawn is definitely the most dangerous but imo it shouldnt be nerfed, others should be buffed instead. At least on higher difficulties.

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If you ask me Chaos Troll is most dangerous, its basicly unkillable if spawn happen in narrow space, situation worst if other enemies attack that narrow space too. Example (troll boss in Elf Rins, mini canyon gauntlet)

Most bosses are already damage sponges and imo half of them are not really fun to fight by themselves. Making them more difficult only exacerbates the issue since most bosses + horde = wipe for the majority of teams. Honestly, there needs to be more consistency surrounding when a horde can spawn during a boss.

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Tweaking the additional spawns during specific bosses (i. e. Chaos Spawn in this case) would be an interesting way to tweak their difficulty, though.

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I agree, but there does need to be some consistency to it. Getting a chaos spawn + horde + specials+ tight corridors is extremely difficult to deal with. On the other hand, a lone troll in the open is honestly trivial.

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This is more or less the point I’m trying to make. Bosses are, by and large, not that much fun or engaging to fight imho. They are essentially giant sponges with two and a half different attack patterns and the only way to fight them is draw aggro, do the dodge dance, ranged dps shoot. It is a nice change of pace, you know, having to slow down and stay stationary, but bosses are rarely really interesting to fight. Either they spawn without horde or specials and get their health eaten away in a couple of seconds, or they spawn in a really tight location with a horde and 3 disablers and then… yeah. So many people keep claiming that this is all gg ez pz, but somehow, you can find very little videos on youtube that seem to reflect that. If there isn’t room to fight, there is no “good players don’t get grabbed”, if you can’t do your dodge dance, there’s little you can do. Much in the same way everyone keeps repeating that packmasters in hordes are oh so easily counterable if you have muh proper positioning and awareness, yet again, all you see is the same everywhere.

Like I said, I don’t think bosses need “nerfs” per se. But if you compare spawn to its Skaven counter part, the roger, the roger has NOTHING over the spawn. It is slower, it seems to have less HP and/or less damage reduction, it’s attacks are slower, it seems to have less reach when compared to the tentacle leash, it cannot grab and disable heroes, it cannot regenerate. I still think the roger is, overall, the second most dangerous boss in the game, but you could make a top10 of most dangerous bosses, and places 1 to 5 would go the spawn.
Troll is the same as Stormfiend, it is either completely trivial or tremendously annoying, depending on the circumstance, though troll has the added “benefit” of being unkillable by a single melee hero other than Shade.

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The 3 hit swing is very poorly telegraphed compared to te other two attacks, the grab sometimes hits players on impossible angles and I really wish you could cut the arm off if you use melee weapons against it as a reward. Similarly ranged feels unrewarding for even attempting headshots.

Also feel like bosses hit too fast on downed targets, really fast, I’m ok with them making it difficult to revive teammates but if you don’t clutch a bomb or taunt or knock back they’re just gonna die in like 2s flat

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Cutting off the arm would be AWESOME. Maybe after a certain number of hits after the grab but then it changes attack patterns.

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Hagbane with 20% monster damage stacked across your items will melt it. I’m pretty sure Chaos damage % adds on them as well. If you have a speed potion, it will never get close to you and you shouldn’t lose aggro if your right clicking arrows into it’s face. Nine times out of ten, I solo it myself and it’s dead in 15 seconds or so. I’ve seen Sienna’s solo it as well. If a horde comes, I normally tell my teammates to take the horde and I take the boss. If shít hits the fan, you can left click spam the rest of your arrows into it and by that point, it should be enough to burn it down while you go help your team.

The most annoying boss for me is the troll. It’s HP regen always slows things down :frowning:

Same hagbane bow setup absolutely melts through trolls.

Agree on this, especially because there’s a pause after burning down the regen HP before you can start dealing damage to it again ^^’;

Definitely won’t argue hagbane’s worth versus bosses, other ranged weapons are less effective without headshots however - luckily not ineffective like against armour however!

Conversely what I like most about the Chaos Spawn is the happy little bunnyhopping it does on initial approach as it gets ready to violate you in ways you could’ve never dreamed of in your worst nightmares. Provided you don’t get to a reasonably open space in-time to start the boss-tango. Even then I honestly quite enjoy fighting them if not for the (to me) hard to read lunge-slams that are difficult to see coming and at times encourage you to not even try to fight back if you have aggro and aren’t a tank D:

Don’t get me wrong however, the fact that it forcibly displaces you and forces you to block is brilliant to me - but with its other noticeably more sluggish attacks such a twitch-reaction attack can be surprising

Chaos Spawn is fine - the bosses should be a challenge. The real issue is that the Rat Ogre is too easy in comparrison. However, due to the nature of the rat ogre not having any real “gimmick” like the other bosses, there will never be a way to make it hard.

I get pumped as a slayer when a chaos spawn comes, its a real fight, but its usually GG in some areas with a horde spawn, yeah.

The spawn should keep the same level of ‘fear’ it holds among players now, but maybe toning down spawn and buffing all the others especially stormfiend to give the same sort of ‘oh crap incoming get ready’ feeling.

or when the CS silently spawns in your face around the large gate at the beginning on halescourge, and you stain your pants brown.

Other bosses should give that feeling. But somehow tuned so it isnt a for sure wipe when a horde and special spam comes in.

Problem is not about being a challenge, the challenge being largely attributed to the fact that bosses spawn with hordes and a large bunch of specials and said challenge is distributed very unevenly among all the bosses.

Stormfiend is too binary. He either does nothing because his flames almost never hit anybody and ground flames are super easy to jump over. He also tends to just walk around and do stupid stuff and give you time to shoot him but then you get hit once with his flamer and you lose 80% of your life there. Trolls are squishy and slow if you got time to just shoot them from a far or focus with decent damage weapons overall but are a nightmare in situations where there is 1-2 men standing only. Chaos spawn is just pretty much more erratic, unpredictable, possibly regenerating rat ogre. My biggest problem with spawn is the fact that it initiates the running combo even when right in your face and that one has very low windup and very tiny amount of reaction window. Basically everytime i fight a spawn i block/dodge preemptively and guess instead on reaction.

Rat ogre is the one boss from first game and in my opinion is in perfect spot. You can learn the patterns, you can dodge or block everything and even dance with them in melee with correct timing with 0 randomness

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But the stormfiend is even easier lol. It’s melee attack is so extremely easy to dodge and at range, it just shoots fire which you can easy side step left or right to avoid. If a horde or specials come during a stormfiend, you’re better off just ignoring it and focusing on everything else. It’s fire attacks will kill it’s own teammates and it will never hit you unless you’re really unlucky. The rat ogre on the other had is aggressive and will chase you down. I think the stormfiend is the only boss you can completely ignore and take care of other threats first.

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