Bombs - A History of Powercreep

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Gameplay Feedback
1

With the constant buffing we see, powercreep is nothing else then a logical conclusion. And I think bombs are a very good case to showcase this.

Initially (Vt1 and beginnings of Vt2) bombs had been a strong tool to create space and to handle messy situations. High damage items which can turn around a situation and kill 80 % of the stuff on screen. However, due to their strength they came with severe limitations:

  • Low rarity and limited availability with no way of re-filling after consumation
  • Two different types to make them situational, both with different strengths
  • Wind-up to make using them even in pressure situations risky, especially as you still need to keep your aim during wind-up
  • Only one bomb at time can be carried
  • Friendly fire damage to not toss them at your feet without consequence

Then came the ā€œbalanceā€ of Vermintide 2:

  • RV early versions: Can drop bombs by killing specials => removes the limitation but still rare due to chance
  • RV later versions: Can literally throw one free bomb per career skill, removing the limited availability. Can be used endless if enough time available. Can even be used outside of career skill. Can be used on the strongest item on Chaos Wastes endlessy, leading to RV always running for the same shrine to make the rest of the map a snooze fest, aside from Rampart.
  • Outcast Engineer: Bomb can now have both effects at the same time. Career can carry up to three bombs.
  • Trollhammer Torpedo: Wind-up removed, bomb is instant shot, making aiming easier. Reload does not need to be aimed, making reload far easier in pressure situations, especially since no slowdown. Also, can be refilled by ammo pouches leading to more or less at least 20 additional bombs per map if Ironbreaker, more on Outcast Engineer. Does work with ammo traits. Hitting heads during hordes is not difficult, so with Conservative Shooter even more bombs per map.
  • Outcast Engineer Mega-Buff: Outcast Engineer creates bombs himself in a faster pace than RV (at least he canā€™t clone Morgrimā€™s ā€¦), Friendly Fire removed

Ranger Veteran alone was already bad with one bomb throw per horde, especially bad in Chaos Wastes ending in always same pilgrimages. Trollhammer worsened this problem as it was a no wind-up, high availability tool with easy possibilities to recover the ammo (Conservative Shooter and Pouches!). But instead of adressing Trollhammer Torpedo, you decided to buff the combination on Outcast Engineer because some people said he was ā€œweakā€ and/or ā€œclunkyā€?

Outcast Engineer has right now a build where he has 30+ bombs available for a 15 minute run. Where he has both bomb effects. Where he has no wind-up and can simply press LMB for instant gratification. And where he deals no friendly fire in order to promote and encourage this behaviour. A career which can dish out the highest AoE damage on a single button press, at least every 30 seconds. A career which basically allows you to play Cataclysm by aiming at his feet. Skill level 0.

None, absolutely none of the initial limitations for the highest AoE damage source in the game does exists for that build anymore. And even if you would completely remove Ingenious Ordenance, the issue with Trollhammer would remain which alone already removes necessary limitations.

Fatshark, why do you think that bomb spam is fun and/or balanced? Because it is not. This is powercreep.

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2

While thereā€™s undoubtedly some powercreep going on and OE is currently overturned, you are being WAY too hyperbolic. Not to mention biased in all the details you overlooked.

TL;DR -the existence of careers brought an uptick in player power to match the enemies themselves having gotten their own respective upgrades. Ultimately the gameā€™s are so different thereā€™s a lot of factors that completely changed.

Same thing in V2 unless you take a single specific Talent present in a single specific career that only a single character can access.

This is a hyperbole, I literally finished played V1 on November, and itā€™s nowhere near as prominent as you make it sound.

And

And

Same thing in V2, once again unless you pick a single specific Talent present in a single specific career only Bardin can access. All this is exclusively a perk of that career, the reasons why you pick it.

Now hereā€™s what you neglected to mention.

Gunnery School Guide, a trinket in V1 that not only doesnā€™t greatly boost the radius of bombs, but also removes Friendly Fire from all bombs just like OEā€™s talent. Only difference? All of this is on a single trinket that ALL characters can access.

With the exception of Gutter Runners, the enemies fought in V2 are quite a bit more deadly compared to 1, case in point Ratlings actually fire their guns now rather than taking the time to crank. Storm Patrols come with shield Stormvermins at the front. Rotbloods and their Blightstormers. The roster of new monsters actually being bigger threats than a single rat ogre.

There are lots of things V1 did better than 2, and powercreep is definitely a problem to be fixed. But youā€™re over playing it a bit much.

A lot of your concerns are simply a result of careers and talents existing, and FSā€™s willingness to make them actually interesting and distinct.

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3

Letā€™s start with the V1 trinket. Yes, it did exist. However, it was counter-balanced by the rarity of bombs in Vermintide 1. You would pick a trinket of which you didnā€™t know if it even was needed. The simple picking of the trinket already had a risk by wasting a slot, you could use for something less circumstancial. In V2, you know that you will use it. Already a large difference.

However, that doesnā€™t matter as well as that paragraph about difference in enemies between V1 and V2. Because I compared the powercreep also to the beginning of Vermintide 2. All these enemies have been there from the beginning (minus Beastmen). However, the bomb power was. The history I show here is purely powercreep within Vermintide 2. Not the transition from 1 to 2. As such the simplification of saying, this is a result of Vermintide 2ā€™s career and talents existing is wrong. It was not like this in the beginning of Vermintide 2 for good reason.

And one of the concern is especially is that there exists a combination that removes all limitations, every single one. But I donā€™t want to focus to much on the combination which is only making an existing problem worse. Because I could live with the bomb combiner talent. And I could live without issue with the no friendly fire talent. IF bombs were actually rare enough to justify this. But they are not.

The overavailability of bombs is actually the main issue. How much bombs can you find per map? Letā€™s say 20 bombs. Now, I assume the lowest case of just Ironbreaker using Trollhammer Torpedo. If you find below average ammo over the map and somehow manage to not make a single heashot, then you will refill your ammo twice resulting in about 20 extra bombs. So with regard to the whole group, your bomb power increases by at least 100 %. If taken to personal level, we are talking about an increase easily in the 300 % to 400 % area.

If you take now the extreme of OE Bombardier. You will have an increase of 150 % for the whole group, with the addition of each bomb being easier to use and doing no friendly fire. Although those things alone without the high availability of bombs would be somehow okay.

But the main offender is the Trollhammer Torpedo. This brings in 20 more, refillable, ammos in worst case scenario. It removes the storage issue. It removes the wind-up. It heavily reduces the rarity of bombs.

Ask yourself:

  • If ā€œbombsā€ are used against singular Chaos Warriors, are they rare enough?
  • Should Chaos patrols on Cataclysm be a threat?

As for the wind-up, if you say it is not as prominent, you can make a little thought experiment. If it is not prominent would it be okay to add the wind-up to the Trollhammer Torpedo. If you just made an ā€œUghā€ noise, you have your answer.

This is not an issue of game transition. This is an issue of power scale increasing more and more within Vermintide 2. Trollhammer Torpedo needs a nerf to make it actually more difficult to use.

4

If they change Ingenious Ordnance everything will be fine. I do not see any problem with Ranger or Trollhammer.

5

So, you say it is the no friendly fire part which should be changed?

6

I already made a post about it. My suggestions are these: ā€œI think it would be the best to just change the talent back to ā€˜Leading Shotsā€™ - it was ok talent that many people liked. Or you can change the time from 80 s to 120 s or 160 s. Or change ā€œexplosives no longer deal friendly fire damageā€ to ā€œexplosives deal a lot more friendly fire damageā€ - that would be fun.ā€ :smiley:

7

Nah sure, there are many ways to adress this. I am just trying to get a feeling what people thing the issue with Ordance is. Apparently, it is the no friendly fire.

Because Trollhammer is more bombs per map than Ordnance, with more ammo (11 instead of a max of 3) and easier to apply. The only thing Ordnance does better than Trollhammer is the removal of Friendly Fire.

8

In my honest opinion, thatā€™s not the case. Power creep happens when they buff X career because weaker than Y careerā€¦ but then they buff Z career too because now weaker than X

And so on until these careers trivialize the game

But, again imo, there is nothing that itā€™s trivializing the gameā€¦ rather more careers still need their niche

9

This is extreme is it not? I do not think i get more than 4-8 in total unless the map like fort baconrush has extra scripted spawns.

10

It is on the higher end. But that is on purpose. To showcase that even if you find above average bombs and below average ammo, you still have an increase of at least 100 %.

These are the numbers we are talking about. Even if the map has no bombs at all. Engineer with Torpedo still ends up with at least 20 bombs. More likely 40+.

Or take fortunes of war. You had a limit of 8?bombs. And now?

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11

Powercreep is when the average power base line is increasing with increasing time.

And this is exactly what we see on Vermintide 2 because we see a lot more and stronger buffs than we see nerfs. Add overpowered new releases on top of that. There is a lot of stuff which trivialises certain elements of the game.

And if you want more careers to fill their niche, you first have to nerf several careers as they overfill their niche and are too good at too many things.

12

Yep, I meant that, I just used different words

And here I donā€™t agreeā€¦ imo, every time there is something over power like the old Moonfire Bow, Fatshark has always overnerfed it

I see more nerf than buff. Moreover the nerf are often exaggerate (Javelin is another example, now a weaker Longbow -but I agree it needed a nerf, just non that heavy-)

While there are careers with internal problems, so regardless the competition with other careers wich play the same role, abandoned to their fate

But I know our vision on this aspect is the opposite, so I stop here. I just wanted to leave my feedback to Fatshark

Have a good day!