This is really convoluted, but It actually seems like it is a nerf to smiter or assassin. As in either smiter or assassin would provide more overall bonus damage than your new finesse talent. Would you say that’s accurate?
I don’t play much elf either, but I slapped it on with HS/Crit WS and Stagger THP FK and did just fine.
If both were buffed, even better.
Was getting maybe 4thp per swing in chaos hordes + any push THP on top of that.
It did start to taper off with killing blows, but that could be changed, potentially evening out with cleave THP.
eh, yeah maybe. I think it could actually be a legit idea to make kill give decent thp for killing infantry and reduce some of the elite thp numbers. Then it really works for any weapon, regardless of what enemy type your killing. Leave in headshot/crit at 3 thp for people who like it or who do a lot of twitch. And then leave in stagger with the changes you mentioned. @Velsix What would you think about that? Headshot/crit / Rebalanced On kill / Rebalanced Stagger for every career.
Crit/headshot at 3 thp sounds fine. I’m biased towards my own idea but I don’t see any issues with this one. Would the max return also be capped for dual wields or would crit/headshot just be bumped up to 3 from 2?
Edit: Note that this doesn’t really solve the core issue I identified in the other thread. The idea only fixes one half of the problem.
The only way to get a feel for this kind of stuff would be play testing. Also, we have some coding limitations. It’s much easier to adjust numbers than it is to change more deeply coded stuff. Trying to get the game to recognize that a dual wield heavy attack is just one attack could be really difficult. I also don’t believe FS wants to jump into that kind of thing either as their resources for this game are currently spread pretty thin. That’s why I try to keep my solutions within numbers adjustments rather than complete reworks, if that makes sense. I agree that there could be a better system, but a fix that requires in-depth coding is unlikely to be implemented any time soon given vs. mode, darktide, chaos wastes, new careers, etc.
I suppose it could be. I’d have to hear from someone at Fatshark or a modder possibly to know.
Fair enough.
Should be fine tbh.
If you manage to score 2 headshots and both of which crit with dual wield attacks, good on you.
The guaranteed crit buffs are questionable.
It could be some added synergy between Riposte + Axe & Falchion.
Probably busted with Cloak of Mist but a lot of us are expecting a nerf.
Fervency, who knows? Needs play testing.
The numbers can be played around with, e.g 2.5 thp hs/crit or 4thp hs / 2thp crit
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On the original topic: IB is actually one of the classes that need changes the very least. All of his talent rows have multiple viable selections depending on loadout and build, and nothing is gamebreaking either. If FS ever does another classes BBB I’d prefer they’d pass IB and just focus on other classes. RV is actually one of those, but changing his talents is no reason to mess with IB’s.
I agree with all of this except booming taunt. It probably needs to be fixed to actually do what is stated in the tooltip rather than the 50% radius increase it gives now. Makes it too strong in comparison to the other talents.
The example is convoluted. The actual talent descriptions are like a few words. Actually less than what we have right now as description.
And yes, the assessment is accurate. The difference to Smiter would mostly be noticed against hordes as I removed it versatility. The difference to Assassin is huge, though (basically I completely ruined Assassin). I think it is easier if I just post the numbers -_- Although such things get lost far back in threads:
- The first talent will be reworked and be called Finesse and be a combination of Smiter and Assassin with the following characteristics
- First enemy hit (per slash) gets + 5 % more melee damage
- Headshots deal + 15 % more melee damage
- Bodyshots deal + 5 % more melee damage
- The second talent will be an altered version of Mainstay and be called Bulwark (irritating, isn’t it :P) with the following characteristics
- Unstaggered enemies receive + 0 % more melee damage
- Enemies in light stagger state receive + 30 % more melee damage
- Enemies in medium to heavy stagger state receive + 60 % more melee damage
- The third talent will stay as it is and be called Enhanced Power . As now, in contrast to the other talents it adds power both to range and melee and not just melee damage
I’ll skip on the math examples. You can do the math yourself.
All his talents are viable at the very least.
Rune-Etched Shield could be better
Under pressure plays funny with weapon switching but pretty good aside from that.
Vengeance is fun and Tunnel Fighter is good but it’s hard to pass up Gromril Curse
I’m not a big fan of Oi! Wazzok! It’s pretty niche but can come handy in weaves.
Just want to point out, that the changes are a pretty heavy nerf to melee in almost all cases. However, you’re leaving enhanced power at 7.5%. Thus your change actually provides a far greater advantage to ranged weapons than a 2.5% buff to enhanced power would if the other talents were not changed. For example, if both a ranged attack and a melee attack did 10 damage, you would have the following result,
Currently, the melee attack would do 12 damage with smiter and the ranged attack would do 10.75 damage with enhanced power.
My proposed changes, the melee attack would do 12 damage with smiter and the ranged attack would do 11 damage with enhanced power.
Your changes, the melee attack would do 10.05 damage with Finesse and the ranged attack would do 10.75 damage with enhanced power.
Headshot calculations are more complicated because you need to know finesse multiplier, but suffice it to say that a 1.15 multiplier is much lower than a 1.4 multiplier for assassin and also lower than a 1.2 multiplier from smiter.
wait hold up why are you nerfing mainstay?
Mainstay’s current numbers are 40%/60%
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Because i was initially in delirium and somehow thought there were three stagger stages :P. Not sure how this happened. Now because it works well with the numbers of Finesse, potentially reaching “same boni” on the second hit.
Would it really be? I completely agree that in comparison to Assassin it would be a heavy nerf. However, in comparison to current Smiter? I don’t see that one. I mean okay, I assume headshots to get to the same numbers but let’s compare with my three imaginary enemies:
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Current Smiter - Unstaggered: 20/0/0
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Finesse - Unstaggered Headshot: 20/15/15 better
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Finesse - Unstaggered Bodyshot: 10/5/5 “equal”
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Current Smiter - Stagger 1: 20/20/20
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Finesse - Stagger 1 Headshot: 20/15/15 slightly worse
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Finesse - Stagger 1 Bodyshot: 10/5/5 “more worse”
Damage for Stagger 2 is “far” worse but usually stuff is either dead by that time or it has a higher stagger resistance anyway so that you hardly reach Stagger 2.
So the Finesse talent would be preferable if you have melee for priority targets. But the innate boni is about equal or better than current Smiter. It loses versatility against horde enemies which have lower health though. So it will be slightly noticeable but I think it is a fair trade-off for potentially reaching better breakpoints.
If you play around stagger, it will be about the same as now. So the “Bulwark” talent is what you take if you are orientated more against hordes or if you are not good with headshotting enemies.
So they both have an area where the succeed while slightly increasing the flanks. I don’t see this as Heavy Nerf to melee. For Assassins yea. For Smiter it can even be a buff. IF you possess Finesse.
I mean, it’s SLIGHTLY better on headshot I guess. But very slightly. Damage dropoff from cleave is very significant. Some weapons don’t even cleave.
This is definitely not equal lol. This is much worse. Again, you’re not calculating the damage reduction from cleave dropoff.
How are you even coming up with this conclusion?? Why would finesse ever be preferable for priority targets? In no situation does it do more damage to the primary target and on body shots it deals far less damage. The innate bonus is only equal to smiter if you completely neglect to calculate the effective of damage drop off from cleave.
Also, let’s not forget that you didn’t even try to compare it to assassin. It’s a huge nerf for those careers.
Edit, the only way Finesse is a buff over smiter is if you have a high cleave weapon and headshot multiple targets per swing. You’d probably need about a 100% headshot ratio on primary targets. Oh and also, you have to assume you’re never hitting multiple staggered targets or a single target in stagger 2. So, that’s a pretty unlikely situation. Also, can we go back to when you admitted it was a nerf?
Um, what’s your point here? I did say twice that in comparison to assassin it is a nerf, yes. So what is the point of a comparison if we agree on the result? I also said twice before that it is absurd that crit fishing should be rewarded with a fricking huge 40 % damage bonus in a so-called skill based-game and this on top of the already high damage of criticital hits anyway. No stagger talent should grant 40 % innate damage bonus, this is far to much even for headshots. So yea, Assassin simply shouldn’t exist.
And if we consider damage cleave dropoff we can simplify it to the first hit in which case Smiter and Finesse are equal if you land a headshot. And yes, for a still huge 20 % innate damage bonus it is fair to ask for a headshot in a so-called skill-based game.
In comparison to the second suggested talent, not in comparison to Smiter. In comparison to Smiter it is about equal because against priority targets (elites) you often use single-target damage attacks which are easier to place headshots so both would bring a bonus of 20 %.
All I am asking for is that people have to actually try a bit to get their bonus.
As for Assassin Careers: We are talking about a total of four careers here. Of which none will become weak by removing Assassin completely from game. This also works the other way around. All careers without assassin are in a disadvantage due to the overpowered nature of that talent. And no, raising everything to assassin level is a no-go. 20 % damage bonus for unstaggered enemies is more than enough.
Nobodies asking for that, we just want Mainstay/Bulwark to actually be worthwhile. 
pretty sure a nerfed version of mainstay makes it overall less valuable than enhanced power
even current mainstay isn’t doing much more for you than enhanced is in melee realistically
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I disagree here somewhat. It’d definitely hurt BH, and he doesn’t need his melee power weakened. That said it would be an acceptable loss if he got better THP talents to compensate, whether that be cleave or just buffing headshot THP.
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Even a push heavy weapon like Mace & Sword doesn’t get much value out of it. Like a 1 - 2 damage increase over Enhanced Power?