Just remove damage bonus for crits completely as crits are strong enough already without the talent bonus and they are not rewarding skill.
Then fuse Smiter and Assassin into one talent and adjust the numbers.
Remove Bulwark and increase the bonus for Mainstay.
Keep Enhanced Power.
Then you have three different talents catering for three different playstyles. It isn’t that hard to balance.
but wouldn’t that mean that every career has the exact same choices for the stagger talents?
That sounds almost impossible to balance lmao. What would those numbers even look like?
And if some talents are removed or replaced, so are some of these builds, like how removing crit/headshot thp on WHC would kill using Riposte vs a Bile Troll.
Honestly, I don’t see why healshare needs to be removed. Is there some kind of hard cap on there being three talents that even Fatshark can’t bypass? If not, just give everyone everything in the thp row and the stagger row.
Is it the one in your BBB Build Testing - BH w/ Repeater + Falchion video? I’ve watched it now. It is memey, but also viable and plays differently from the standard Crossbow build most BHs use.
Small sidetrack, but any ideas for making Repeater Pistol decent? I think the idea Fatshark had behind the Repeater Pistol on BH was you weaken up several elites at range, then kill them in melee for thp on kill, but BoP is better at this multi-focus multi-shot tactic because it has more shots in a clip, and isn’t as reliant on crits. If the Repeater Pistol did do something wacky like cleaving armour, it would be good for this.
Difficult to balance because the other ranged weapons already have their roles covered. Volley just needs a cleave boost, Crossbow does single target killing and BoP is for making mistakes/reactionary killing/bursting, which from what I can see, leaves the Repeater Pistol two options – being a shotgun hybrid, or a jack of all trades ranged weapon with a crit reliance.
How on Earth is cleave thp going to work on a career with 15% attack speed on a weapon with 2.24 cleave? Thp on crit/headshot is viable with that, but not cleave. Slayer is a different story with higher attack speeds, but usually takes on cleave because of their other weapon anyway.
Ah, playstyle choices. So you do want it to matter as a choice, something that player leans into or prefers. Like a player that focus on whatever is in front of them is more likely to benefit from cleave, but one that prefers to focus down elites is going to benefit from on kill (provided the weapon is acceptably good at it).
The idea that they are this way now is. I recognise talents aren’t that way right now. The work that goes into reworks I’ve posted in the past usually involve a lot of thinking about how the talents could each make a player play differently, or have to think about different things in gameplay. It’s difficult but I haven’t given up yet. I hope Fatshark hasn’t either.
I’ve seen a lot of players get 30% headshots in a game like L4D2. 50% in V2 doesn’t sound extreme to me. With certain weapons and high attack speeds it should be possible. I’d love a way to track it though. The only easy thing I’ve thought of was using a program to count the number of times the pixels that make up the crosshair in a video switch to orange and how many times they switch to white, which still wouldn’t be accurate (and useless with any tick damage). A mod would be best.
Haha Assassin go brrr. Who’s the real bodyshotter now Smiter? Fatshark is very good at balance.
For making it fair, I’m not too sure how. There’s a lot of ways it could be done, but it depends on the math and the weapon breakpoints:
A talent that says, “30% increase in total damage on melee headshot” would seem okay to me. I think the crit bonus should at least be less than the headshot bonus if it has to stay.
Heal share could also be made a neck trait. The idea of having 4 talents on a row is unlikely to be implemented even if it’s the simplest and/or best solution.
As far as removing crit/headshot thp, I do think it makes sense to keep on high-finesse careers like shade and WHC. If it can be balanced appropriately, at least. It’s just a very difficult talent to balance. It was really good when it worked exactly the same as it does now but just have 3 thp instead of 2 actually. That might be worth a try.
Haha no it’s one posted in some discords. It’s a scrounger build with salvaged ammo and blessed combat and I take buckshot. It’s horrible but super fun.
Actually, yes. Just make it give back 8 ammo on alt fire crit instead of 3. If it’s a spammable weapon it would be very good (maybe too good). It wouldn’t fix it for the other careers but I’m honestly fine with it being a BH specialty sort of weapon.
Preach. It was so fun in the beta before everyone whined until it was nerfed. I did a lot of testing with it, it wasn’t bette than hag or fireball or shotguns or any other horde clear weapon. People just were comparing it to unbuffed volley.
Tbh, it’s not my top priority. My top priority would be balancing classes so some classes aren’t hindered by having poor standardized talents. My second priority would be that every weapon is playable on every careers at least as far as stagger/thp talents are concerned.
My point was just that balancing the options is more important than having more options if you want to create actual choice vs illusion of choice.
I think these two changes are a good place to start. It’d be hard to remove base stagger from the game as it’s actually a core game mechanic and not related to the talent choice.
This is something which some people would prefer. I have no issues with the current system in terms of different careers having different stagger and THP talents. I have an issue that some stuff is to strong.
There should be an old balance thread from the BBB where I have noted down the numbers with some examples. Maybe it is still available. Simplified it would be more finesse and/or single target based weapons would work with the “Finesse” talent, more brutish and/or multi target based weapons would work with the “Brute” talent and for better ranged damaged and/or stagger breakpoints it would be “Enhanced Power”.
well no other game with a talent tree gives the same talents for all the available classes. just seems like poor/bad design for copy pasta talents. just my opinion of course. what point would a talent tree be if everyone starts getting the same talents?
The talent tree is very limited/linear, just in the number of talents alone & pick 1 out of 3 system.
THP/stagger talents are fundamentally important to gameplay and influence balance/weapon choice.
Could just give each career Assassin, Smiter and merge Bulwark into Enhanced Power.
Crit/HS THP bumped up to 3 thp
On Kill THP revisited, currently trash enemies give too little and some of the beefier enemies give too much.
Stagger THP granting thp on killing blows and shield/flamesword THP bought down.
Healshare could be a trait and cleave could just not exist if the above 3 cover every weapon type reasonably well. THP could also be bought down if green health is recovered instead.
Like I said before. I don’t like the idea of Critical hits getting another innate damage boost when Critical hits do already more damage to begin with. The concept of a 40 % innate damage bost without stagger should be gutted. In general I would tone down the crit spam style.
I would add the headshot part to Smiter and tinker the numbers. Bulwark can be removed completely and in contrast we increase the values for Mainstay. I sent you the stagger talents as I envision them in the past. And I am still convinced that it is a fully functioning system.
Concerning THP I am mostly fine with the current system. I don’t have issues with Healshare being a talent and I don’t think we need each THP generation on each career. At least not as long as we haven’t toned down some stuff. Cleave gives to much THP on one or two enemies for example. THP on kill gives also to much for elites (especially CW). Shields generating high THP with Shields is okay for me as it is mostly a defense weapons but I get why people don’t like it. I agree though that Firesword causes to much THP on Battle Wizard + Famished Flames because it kinda games the system by staggering the enemies and still killing them by the absurd DoT.
Obviously with number tweaks Assassin could be more balanced.
Bulwarks concept is good, would actually like to see it a competitive pick or at the very least something worthwhile on Push heavy/shield weapons.
Depending on how it’s buffed, it could also serve the same purpose as Mainstay.
I’m for giving each career the same THP talents, ensures each weapon has a suitable way of generating THP.
Your suggested/envisioned stagger talents kinda just butchered it and somehow made it convoluted.
Removed the stagger system from Enhanced Power and Assassin/Smiter.
Merged Smiter and Assassin into one talent.
Reduced Smiter to 10%, Assassin to 20% and removed crit bonuses entirely.
Subsequent headshots against the same enemy increased Assassin’s bonus
Mainstay stagger 1 reduced to 30% from 40%.
- If you do two headshots against an enemy with Finesse he will get +40 % more damage, while + 30 % more damage with Bulwark, so Finesse is in favour
- If you headshot subsequent enemies with Finesse twice they will get + 30 % damage, the same result you get with Bulwark if the second hit is in staggered state, so with the second hit the talents will have equal impact
I’m still trying to wrap my head around it.
It would depend how kill was balanced. If kill gives a lot of thp for infantry mobs, then it could work. Otherwise, weapons like the elf sword are gonna be killed by not being able to make thp.
Not really, it is very clear in what each talent does and each has a specific purpose.
Some people repeatedly said that the community mostly choses the talents which opt out of the stagger system. So I gave them exactly that. Talents which are opting out of the stagger system and are easier to calculate those valuable breakpoints.
The numbers are not correct. But yea, crit bonus was removed entirely as it is a poor concept to further engage crit spam, especially since critical hits already do more damage. They don’t need a talent which gives them yet another innate damage boost. It is silly.
No, they do not.
That is correct. Have to admit though that I made a description error in the text i send you because I remembered something wrong…
Not sure what the issues with the examples is. I checked and the calculation seems correct to me. As long as you can headshot a bit “Finesse” will give you an advantage by reaching breakpoints and needing fewer hits. It is skill based though.
Yeah that’s what they already attempted with assassin vs smiter vs mainstay. Unless you described it poorly (“Remove Bulawark and increase the bonus for Mainstay”), this would be impossible to balance with a talent that combines smiter/assassin in some way. If you want to keep one of the talents, it should be bulwark. Bulwark actually makes sense with bash weapons, it just needs a slight buff. You can replace the intended function of Mainstay by increasing enhanced power’s bonus to 10%. Doing that actually works for high cleave/horde clear/ high stagger weapons. Mainstay does not work.
As Enhancing Power is also affecting ranged play it should not be buffed under any circumstances. Ranged weapons are already the high damage dealers, we don’t need to add on this.
Bulwark does work if you remove the stagger bonus damage from the alternatives. Then it has real value in horde situations with cleave weapons.
While I combined Assassin and Smiter or better said “First enemy hit per slash” and “Headshot bonus damage” I have toned down the numbers. In that manner something silly like a 40 % bonus for unstaggered does not exist any longer.
While I like the concept of Bulwark, most of what I read said that it is useless. Since I have only three spaces I skipped on it. It is an interesting effect but not needed for balancing the stagger talents.
I mean, I just don’t really agree with that take at all. And even if it’s true, a 2.5% damage increase to ranged careers isn’t going to be that noticeable.
I think it is easier to just disagree on that instead of having a bloody mess discussion about 2.5 %. I just don’t want to see more damage and cleave to ranged play.
I was going off what you said, even quoted you on the subsequent headshot stuff.
Currently it is useless, buffing it to 20% and/or merging it with Enhanced Power would bring it up and could fulfil a similar role to Mainstay while also offering supportive buffs.
If I can make room for Assassin or Smiter on a ranged career I’m doing so, Enhanced Power is kind of a last resort or if certain breakpoints are necessary. I doubt a small buff/merge would make it OP.
I think Elf Sword would work okay with Stagger THP if it actually granted THP on killing blows, same goes for a lot of other weapons.
I think there has been made some assumptions on writing and reading on both sides which caused a confusion. If you include the body damage bonus you can get the numbers you wrote, however it is a slightly wrong depiction because it isn’t “Smiter” and “Assassin”, it is “First Enemy Hit per Slash”, “Headshot bonus damage” and “Bodyshot Bonus Damage” which you - so I think - combined.
Also for the quoting, I assumed “added” bonus damage and “subsequent” being "not the first. Imagine you have three enemies standing side by side and you make twice an attack headshotting all three and causing light stagger between the first and second hit.
With the Finesse talent, enemy two and three receive 15 % more damage per hit due to the headshot bonus which I summed up to 30 % (which is mathematically wrong since I would have to average out by the number of slashes). Meanwhile the second talent gives 0 % bonus damage on the first slash and 30 % bonus damage on the second slash, resulting also in a summed up value of 30 % (again, mathematically wrong). In this case where I would need two hits they would be equallyvaluable. If the 15 % bonus in the first talent would be enough to reach a breakpoint or the enemy can’t be staggered then the first talent would be more valuable. If I need more than two hits to kill the enemy and can put him into high stagger state the second talent would be more valuable. The result is correct, even when the wording is difficult. Mathematically, I would have averaged out over the number of slashes but I’m not sure it would have made it easier to understand. At least in the original thread the participants seemed to grasp it better the way it is currently worded.
Moral of the story is talents are really easy to balance when you ignore all the factors that make them hard to balance
Nah stagger thp is really bad if it’s not a weapon you spam push stabs on. Maybe you do on elf sword though? Idk I don’t play elf.