Actual data on why the ogryn rework is a BIG buff

[raulikien]

Posted this on another comment somewhere else but I think it’ll be nice to have a thread where we compile these comparisons. I want everyone to try and remake their old builds in the new tree using Build Editor - Create your own Builds - Warhammer 40k: Darktide - Darktide WH40k and then come here and show me actual nerfs to the class.

If you look at the data instead of hyper focusing on some nerfs or parroting what random youtubers say, you will realise that this patch is in fact a very big buff. I welcome everyone to have a respectful discussion here and try doing what I’m posting next with whatever is your favorite build.

Here’s an example of one of my favorite builds to roleplay as a tank, nothing meta but decent. I tried to pick all the same talents whenever possible.

Now I will give you a more detailed comparison than the table/cells image, not complete, but good enough.

TOUGHNESS
130 → 140
Old: 50 base + 80 talents
New: 75 base + 65 talents

EXTRA TOUGHNESS REPLENISH
75% → 65%
Old: Only worked on coherency regen
New: Works for everything toughness related. THIS IS AN INSANE BUFF

TDR BASE (always)
30% ->40%
Old: 20% base + 10% talents
New: 25% base + 15% talents

TDR CONDITIONAL
25% → 55%
Old: FNP keystone
New: FNP keystone + 15% on high stamina + 15% on everyone getting tougness damage (always really)

TAUNT
0% toughness → 206% toughness (2 bars!)
Old: 0% toughness, -1 talent point for mandatory range upgrade
New: this free talent point is spent on 25% toughness instant + 100% in 10 secs, 125% total and multiplied by 1.65 because of the new replenishment buffs.

DAMAGE FOR THE TEAM
40% → 55% + 40% brittleness!!!
Old: Taunt and soften them up
New: Taunt, soften, new hard knocks, new push brittleness
Remember, all these buff your damage too while still going tanky and sacrificing 0 blessing slots.

COMPLETELY NEW STUFF I GET

1. Free push on dodge. THIS IS ALSO AN INSANE BUFF
2. Toughness and bleed on light attacks
3. “Infinite” stamina, 5% gained on stagger is more than what my push consumes with the 16 stam bars I used to rock or so on the shield. (Try it, it’s very good I swear)
4. 25% revive speed when someone goes down (always, you revive when someone goes down duh)
5. FNP actually procs the pained outburst. Only needs half stacks, plus I get 82.5% of my toughness bar for it! (50*1.65)
6. My team replenishes 15% more toughness

WHAT I DON’T GET VS MY OLD BUILD (nerfs?)

1. -15% HP (Oof, no more chonk and funny hp numbers but doesn’t really matter much with so much toughness)
2. -5% rending (Wow! Who cares, I push and I get double the amount)
3. -Furious (who cares, I get perma 12.5 strength when a shooter hits anyone and another 10 on weakspot for existing)
4. -Lynchpin (who cares, I gain an average of a 100% flat toughness after I taunt, and I free 3 curio slots that I used to stack coherency toughness along lynch to make it decent. That curio stat becomes garbage now that we can actually regen toughness with a tank build.)
5. -Bruiser a bit nerfed. Good. Nerf the other classes cooldowns too already.
6. -5% toughness on heavies from 20% before (not really though, I get 25% now! 15*1.65)

See? Even the nerfs are not really nerfs when you don’t see them in a vacuum. I know I didn’t go through every single thing but that’s good enough to make my point. Honestly, it’s not even an optimal build and it will still kick ass I reckon, proper tank power fantasy. You can also pick stuff like steady grip and get something like 20% toughness per second for holding a button, absurd.

Seriously, there’s no one more blind that the one who cannot see. And this is just one build, every single build is an overall buff, and if you were good at ogryn you’re gonna be a god now. Still, some things seem like a nerf because voice of command 15 secs of invulnerability, with a 30 sec cooldown with 6 sec flat reduction on clicking somewhere on your screen is busted. Nerf that nonsensical garbage already and then we can talk about balance.

[BFCInsomnia]

Ogryn went from F to D tier while the others are all in S+ tier.

I guess their job is done.

[Hextechnician]

No one who isn’t delusional is saying it isn’t a big buff. The problem is as BFC just described.

Ogryn might be in a much better place, but he still can’t bring quite as much to the table at the highest difficulties as the other 3 classes, so for some people, this makes the buff meaningless. Even if it isn’t.

[raulikien]

That’s a problem for the developers to solve. There’s an obvious powercreep and the cooldown reductions on the 3 other classes for example is super overtuned and should be nerfed. The solution is not to make ogryn broken but to bring everyone back to a balance state, which I assume is what the playtesters for ogryn wanted, trying to get the balance right.

You can’t really expect things to ever be balanced or compete when something like the vet shout, which can have basically 15 secs teamwide of invulnerability forever if you play it right, has gone unnerfed for a year or more. It’s not an ogryn problem, it’s the other broken stuff around him warping the perspective around balance.

[Ragnarok101]

@raulikien

You can’t really expect things to ever be balanced or compete when something like the vet shout, which can have basically 15 secs teamwide of invulnerability forever if you play it right, has gone unnerfed for a year or more. It’s not an ogryn problem, it’s the other broken stuff around him warping the perspective around balance.

I have to agree. Maybe bring some of this to the balance megathread? Because figuring out what’s enormously broken in the various trees feels necessary.

[Hextechnician]

I’m not disagreeing, just stating the facts as they are.

Only people completely disconnected from reality think the Ogryn changes were a nerf.

The question is are they going to nerf the other 3 classes to bring them in line with the Ogryn? I sincerely doubt it. More likely Ogryn gets additional buffs in the future, regardless of the wisdom of that decision.

Although I wouldn’t complain if I was wrong about that prediction. Game can’t get much more powercrept without becoming unplayable.

[raulikien]

I worry about that too, that they won’t bother touching the other classes. Nowadays, the devs are probably afraid that they will get “cancelled” or review bombed it they ever get close to tweaking any of the OP stuff that people like using. The truth is, even PVE games need balance constantly to stay healthy. Oherwise the game will stop being fun for the people who don’t like to abuse broken weapons/talents. We really need one of those big balance patches that Vermintide 2 had.

[Hextechnician]

Yeah that’s the rub, I don’t see them taking away people’s toys any time soon. Just look at the dueling sword conversation happening right now. It would be 20x worse if classes got the same attention.

[Ragnarok101]

In all honesty, if the players are that much a pile of babies, just jank up elite health so they don’t have to see their numbers go down.

Again.

Or Fatshark could bite the bullet, acknowledge that things have run away from their original intentions, and hammer in the changes that need making.

[GMG_Pie]

It took 9 months for Sister of the Thorn to get reworked and we are nearly at the 11 month mark since Patch 13 dropped. I am hopeful that the other classes could get interesting changes at the level of the Ogryn rework but who knows. Zealot has one build and even so much as changing grenades kneecaps you.

[BFCInsomnia]

That’s exactly it.

This rework fixed none of his actual issues, nerfed some builds out of their relevance and has a ton of questionable changes which make no sense in the wider context of the other classes.

Most of the positive changes were what I’d consider “normalizations”. aka. changes to things that should’ve never been in their original state to begin with. f.e: ogryn charge being susceptible to bullets and traps while zealots charge isn’t or him being able to dodge past small enemies.

On the other hand, we have negative changes that go against that principle. Why nerf the objectively weaker CDR talent on ogryn when vets and psykers exist?

I can only hope that FS will look at CDR overall and they will change those talents on the other classes too but then they would’ / should’ve said that this time around. And even if they did, the old ogryn CDR talent was fine. This new version is just not where CDR talents should be.

@Hextechnician

Yeah that’s the rub, I don’t see them taking away people’s toys any time soon.

And that’s the exact problem DT is in rn. The changes needed to bring DT closer to how challenging VT2 is, would make DT into a completely different game. People are afraid of change. I have a pretty decent “armchair-dev” idea of what would be needed, I understand that the game would benefit from those changes and I’m afraid of that idea myself.

If you can’t sell someone on that idea that does understand why it’s good and needs to happen, how are you going to sell that to someone that doesn’t?

[Murderer]

I’ve seen multiple delusional people here I guess. I think showing that this is an objective buff has value to keeping discourse on the topic objective and factual.
If you think about it, staying objective helps get the outliers addressed. Minimizing what you have and maximizing what others have is probably a big part of why other classes are S+ tier.

As for topic I did this for two builds, partially because one person was insisting the buffs are actually straight nerfs, and partially because I was curious myself how things square up:

HH+Taunt build

Ogryn balance should be delayed

I’ll keep it short this time but I got 1:1 all the talents you had here. Your changes: Bruiser is nerfed a little. DR: -16% DR via delight in destruction, but 5% DR from base buff, aswell as 15-20% DR depending on which DR talent or payback/soften em up you pick at the top. So your DR will be 4-9% better with this build. Total toughness: Goes from 115 to 140. Massive boost, over 21% more toughness. That’s more than a free curio worth. Toughness Replenishment: Melee attack toughness gain buff…

Standard light em up Gunlugger

Ogryn balance should be delayed

So I’m going to just take your first build and replicate it 1:1 and compare the stats. You took a lot of talents in the remake build that you didn’t take in the first one so I think it’s an unfair comparison. 1:1 conversion would be like this: Notes: This is ALL THE SAME TALENTS except one: I’ve replaced soften em up with payback time because it’s the same 15% damage bonus but with a superior triggering mechanism that works on ranged. You have 3 points left, so you can still take soften em up…

Unfortunately the person who said the rework is a straight nerf has yet to come around, even in the face of his old build being remade 1:1 with better stats and points to spare.

[Brad9191]

This is actually so well put in so little words.

[Hank_jw]

Ogryn already had a relatively high winrate in Havoc 40 and playtesting results suggest that he has now fully matched or surpassed Veteran’s and Psyker’s strongest builds (Chorus gonna Chorus, though). A lot of people are drawing the wrong conclusions from the preview, that’s all I can say.

[Brad9191]

It’s 100% a selection bias sample; there’s too many variables and factors here. The only people playing ogryn at Havoc-40 are basically gods, plus the game mode has been next to dead for quite awhile too, so less games, also not to mention the fact that they could possibly get carried for wins as well, see? Too many factors, it’s cherry picking at its finest. You have to be great to make it shine in order to win matches. Some even take less than 400 dmg a match and cap a mill+ dmg. However, even these players get left in the dust if they’re paired with equally skilled teammates playing the other classes. When I’m ogryn I’m the top of the score, I’m in a very small minority of players that can pull this off. When I’m any other class it makes my performance as ogryn look cute by comparison. Win rate is such a bad metric to determine sole performance in literally anything or one particular class alone. It’s such a small relative sample size, Havoc-40 runs or less are not that common, period. In my experience playing almost 4k games so far, guess who is the most likely to go down a million times in a game? Yes, ogryns. This proves to my mind you have to be more competent and skilled with him or you face dire consequences. Come on man, they literally do challenge runs with duo ogryns with more skilled players and even with those more skilled guys they still go down like 2-3 times in a run. They wouldn’t be doing these as challenge runs if it wasn’t a challenge, lmao, so obviously it tells me the average ogryn enjoyer isn’t participating much. This is very obviously super illogical. The data points would make more sense to me as a whole if you took the sample size to distribute it more evenly across all match difficulties then we’re talking, we can have a real conversation on it worth having.

[dannylew8299]

I’m tellin’ yah… this convo is only heated because Ogryn has a history of being on the receiving end of the fatshark bad touch more visibly than the rest.

If FS was like “Hey we changed Bruiser, BTW we also changed every CDR talent in the game to be in-line with this because we already know what we want going forward.” Then people would be like “Oh, I guess that’s how it is on this b*tch of an earth now . Can PBB consume less ammo?” (that’s totally a thing people in the plural would ask for if they weren’t salty and not just me).

[alsozara]

I’m confident the only reason they’re not doing that is they know they’re gonna have to package some compensation (eg smokes rework, right tree improvements, whatever other buffs to under performing parts of the tree) with a tactical awareness nerf to avoid a Vet riot.

And they’re probably correct to be fair, but in some ways it’d be better if they ripped than band-aid off sooner rather than later.

[Geadly]

I actually think that deciding whether or not this Ogryn change is a buff or a nerf is kinda meaningless considering that the update is not out yet
(Or maybe I am just really bad at predicting stuff based on values and their connections to existing mechanics)

And well, that wasn’t the point of Ogryn’s rework, it was mainly focused to address the variety issues with the big guy, and I am all for that
(Maybe buffing him along the way)

I think that this misconception is born from the fact that Ogryn is considerably worse than others at High Level plays

I actually understand why did you make this post and appreciate that you tell the other side of the story

---

Anyway, let’s not jump to conclusions yet

[BFCInsomnia]

@Hank_jw

high winrate in Havoc 40 and playtesting results suggest

I would love to see that data. Not because I don’t believe it but because I have the same feeling as Brad9191. I also fully understand that’s not something you can share, I’d just be interested in seeing it.

@Brad9191

The only people playing ogryn at Havoc-40 are basically gods

and a playtester of that skilllevel could make any class look balanced.

[Murderer]

Theorycrafting is fun, but I agree here

@Geadly

And well, that wasn’t the point of Ogryn’s rework, it was mainly focused to address the variety issues with the big guy, and I am all for that
(Maybe buffing him along the way)

While there does seem to be more variety I think they might’ve gotten sidetracked a bit and buffed him a bit too much. I’m thinking about how I’ve been finding no challenge in aurics with most ogryn builds and weps already, all of which just got pretty big buffs. At the same time I’m not sure there’ll be many good new builds for high havocs, but I do see a few approaches.
This game is in a very odd spot for balance and Havoc isn’t making it any better