Ogryn rework

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide Gameplay Feedback
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First of: I’d like to say that the other 3 class are mainly amazing and really fun to toy around with because of the hard compromise players have to make. (maybe less on zealot but still it’s great to play so who cares.)

Today I went on games lantern to make a reworked ogryn build, it didn’t felt great.
I found my self looking for what was less bad instead of what’s good in order to complete builds.

The main problem with ogryn is that he feels slugish. So i’ll give my opinion on talents and then more broad suggestion for our best boy.

The 5 passives under Soften Them Up & Payback Time are underwhelming and don’t bring anything substential: I’ll sugest to change strongman to increase movement speed or cleave. The other are simply not what ogryn players awaited for. Maybe only do 3 talent, 1 damage based, 1 speed based, 1 cleave based.

One of the best design changed you’ve made by removing the near obligation to use heavy attacks is great. So great that some talent might be dificult to justifie getting at. I’d move some talent around for more meaninfull (and build tree coherent) choices:
Disclamer :“This part is based on gameslantern version of the build tree. I’m not sure it’s accurate”.
_Implacable & No Stopping Me! both move up one position respectively
_Too Stuborn to Die goes too Hard Knocks position
_Hard Knocks takes No Stopping Me!'s old placement
_Frenzied Blows goes where Bash and Blast is because it’s really strong.(now harder to get for middle and right tree but I have sugestion for for those bellow)
I feel this is better because player that won’t value heavy attacks as much now will wan’t to have Hard Knocks and, No Stopping Me! Although a great addition wouldn’t have been used because of it’s placement.

Now, why i think the middle tree need dramatic changes:
Loyal Protector Is miles away from zealot book wich is: more effective at staggering(range and duration), also provide team buffs, gives gold toughness and the righteous vindication provided by the holy ligt of the Emperor of mankind.
Loyal Protector buffs/modifiers should work with Attention Seeker(not clear rn if it’s the case but i’m guessing no).
Loyal protector should have at least 20 meters range because of, gunners, it’s the max range of zealot book and it feels like even Bardin iron breaker class as more range than big lung ogryn. It will be impactfull and look cool at every difficulty and skill level.
Middle tree could use gimmicks like the more staggers he does the more Impact/cleave he gets or something like that. This way this is still a sluggish ogryn but at least he as real impact (No pun intented). Or maybe taunted enemies are more easily pushed and cleaved through.
Maybe an ability on the theme of fighting fear where the more enemies taunted the more strength/power you get. Or give 1% mellee damage for each blocked attack the last 12 sec (maybe this is what No Hurting Friends should be).
Stay Close could be replaced with a talent thats makes impact be more usefull to ogryn than for other class just like Loner(zealot) affect only the player. Maybe Impact is Converted to Strenght or something that is atleast understandable by all players.

All of this will be more engaging for players and make them understand that they’re are better things to do than standing behind they’re shield but that it is also a viable solution based on the situation.

And finally for the Point-Blank Barrage build:
The change are good, more crits, more lucky bullets. Maybe 16 stack reduction in Light Em Up is too much because it was the most fun thing about this build lets hope crit damage make up for it.

Outliers talents:
Bash And Blast, Spray And Slay & Dedicated Practice are should all be on the right side tree mix with others or themselves. The comparison with Weapon Specialist(veteran) is obvious pls make it feel good instead of out of pocket.
Unstopable Momentum as an ability that is attainable by mixed build should have a longer timer(6 sec?), because of wield time and reloading time especially considering ogryn’s weapons. It won’t change the ranged build but will be inticing for others.
Furious: It’s not worth 2 point for a very optimistic maybe 12.5% damage once every two attack. Seems like fatshark have a lot of Disdain(zealot) for ogryn player? (pun intended)
Crunch!: Debuff for no obvious reason to me while costing one more point to get it now. I feel like it was fine before as a skill based high risk high reward talent. I have to ask how can Duelist(zealot) exist and then Crunch! get’s nerfed. I don’t wan’t to be vulgar so i’ll at least say that this really saddens me.

Bonus Ideas:
Make Big Friendly Rock modifiers explode the stony friend to do AOE impact zone that project close (lighter) enemies to the ground.

Go Fatshark, peace and love to you all.

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I feel making Ogryn faster, as nice as that would be, goes against the design philosophy they want for the big man. I’d appreciate it too, but I feel removing the heavy attack move speed penalty and more importantly, giving them the passive to knock over people with their dodge, was quite enough to help them be a good bit more capable. I could see a base dodge distance increase as well (given the fact I’m sure trappers will still clip my Ogryn big toe and drop me with ease), but I feel making them ‘faster’ isn’t the point. They are supposed to be lumbering but hit hard, and with all the damage they got in their tree now, that’s very much what they are going to be capable of doing. If you want speed, I feel their answer is ‘go zealot’.

Beyond that, I feel a couple of these could be cool/I was hoping for but didn’t see. I know ‘attention seeker’ working with loyal protector I was personally hoping for, I know it could be a bit much but I like synergies and it felt like an obvious one that just doesn’t work. I feel as nice as it would be to taunt gunners, I personally never want to unless I’m ‘attention seeking’ with a shield, they rip through an Ogryn like butter and I am quite fine leaving Loyal protector to hit ‘what’s in front of me’ verses ‘yes I’d like those 10 gunners that aren’t close to me to beam me in the forehead right here yes thank you’. Though, I guess if it forced them into melee it would be nice, if it worked that way I’d accept it.

Your thought for middle tree ‘getting more gimmicks’ it kinda already does, given the additional melee damage on stagger along with brittle applied on push, and still having no push over and ‘help the little uns’ style talents. More cleave would be cool, but that’s what heavy hitter does/the more aggressive side is for, and the Ogryn already hits really hard, so I feel Slam being there is kinda all they need.

Stay Close being replaced with impact would be useless and terrible compared to literally giving you and your team more toughness from every source. Goes from top tier to absolute useless garbage in a single change, and we do not want more talents like Loner. Loner is not an aura, it’s a talent that griefs your team because they could have an aura helping them but don’t. We don’t want more of that.

Would like more duration on Unstoppable Momentum though, it got an extra second but that really only helps for a ranged build. Would be nice to be able to ‘hot swap’ for some speed at the cost of some bullets, verses it just being ‘I can move faster while reloading/being a reaper’.

I also didn’t really understand why Furious has a needless tax node in front of it, especially with all the other better damage increases across the rest of the tree now. Steady grip is one point investment, but a minor damage amp every other hit taxes me a node? feels like a weird choice.

Not sure how crunch is considered a nerf, it went from ‘completely useless as you’d have to charge your heavy fully to see a benefit, so you’d basically never do that outside of very small circumstances’ to ‘this will always at least somewhat effect every heavy I perform’. Though making it go to 20% would be nice for numbers reasons, but I feel again, with the rest of the damage available on the tree accompanied by a vast amount less tax nodes, it will function fine for those that want it. Heck directly before it is a 15% damage amp after landing the hit, so I think it’s fine when taken into context with the rest of the tree.

Rock exploding would be funny, I don’t see that being balanced though given it’s a rechargeable blitz. Grenade box got upgraded to a capacity of 3 for a reason, you want boom, go with that. Rock was pushed toward ‘Ogryn knife’ territory for dealing with high value targets quickly (mainly to drop trappers and mutants really), and with the added refund on top of that making everything stagger would be a bit much.

(I’m not going to comment on the moving talents around as we don’t even have the tree in our hands yet, so I have no comment on where things are placed until I can actually feel a build in my hands and see what might be better moved where. It seems all fine thematically for me atm so I have no comment).

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I guess they can stay sluggish expecially considering gravity. And that is why I want to see some thing that give best boy an edge that others class don’t. Because right now it seem that the slowest character have most of their talent be lesser version of other class talents.

I’ll bring some clarification to my post arguments.
Stay close is already useless, it does not give “more toughness from every source”. Replenishment means coherency, like what you have on your curios, it applies to coherency. And coherency is off the instant an enemy enter an 8 meter radius around you and has agroed you. Wich on higher difficulties is only going to be in between hordes, when you don’t really need it. Arguably, stay close is thematic because ogryn takes away agro from you but even if he had 20 meters radius to agro enemies out of you, it would give maybe 5 to 10 sec of coherency before further enemies be 8 meters from you wich is enough if you have full regen on curios but also means the whole as to be build like that.
What I want for Stay Close replacement is that impact(or stat related to impact) have a secoundary effect on ogryn that gives him an edge and more endearing gameplay.

I think Crunch! is a nerf because of the buff ogrin have when charging and the “safeness of getting hit” with thing like Pay Back Time. And although hard to gage, it’s pretty cool to preshot one-shot a mutant for exemple.
Now consider playing Thrust or your weapons and already charged the maximum ammount your not far off the to get your +40%.
What do you preffer? Release immediately at 3 stack and get 20% + 15% or wait 0,5 sec more and get 20% + 40%.

Rock need to be fun just to be fun/endearing indeed. Because It will never get even close to Throwing knives which can be thrown instantly in the midle of mele without having to pull them out first, can be spammed, you get them back with ammo drop and when killing spec and elites. And if know what your doing can one shot Crushers with em. I don’t care that theyre not lore friendly or balanced btw because it require skill to do that. Now you can’t tell me having to use 2 stone to kill a crusher is justified by some kind of balance thing. I just wan’t simple thing that would be akin to every skill level. So that fun is always here and try hard can have their piece too.
And I don’t think it will ever be done anyway, this part is just because IMO balance should only matter in in pvp games.

Thank for the precision on the build not being accurate I thought the build on gameslantern was based on an official thing. My bad. I guess based on that its still can tell what I wanted to see but yeah, in that case pretty stupid of me.

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Wholly unrelated to any balance or gameplay consideration but I think “Dedicated Practice” should be renamed to something more Ogryn-Sounding. Something like “Pumping Iron”.

So it’s like, you work out so much you can switch weapons faster.

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Soon to be more sluggish because the charge ult will effectively not have cooldown reduction.

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I guess I should have frame this better…
Because I open with saying that and then talk about Talent, meanwhile the “sluggishness” comes from weapon stat really but I don’t wan’t the ogryn to feel “light” either.
I think he has the potential to have very specialised build that feels really different from one another. to the point that i think the ogryn should be more than one class cause of all the exotic equipment like in vt2. (very different game, probably an unrealistic demand from me and thats why I didn’t post that^^.)
And he is not underpowered either you can play pickaxe and one shot everything or play Guns and meltdown everything and be top damage in 75% of games. It’s just really repetitive to me and frankly mind numbing. “Balancing” weapons is needed but won’t change the overall feel of not having options in game and when building. I think spyker and veteran are superb exemple of what can be done in that regard.
Why does hes have the worse version of other classes already exhisting talent?
Why I am so incentivise to play pick axe only or spend the whole run shooting until I get tinnitus?

The answer is probably balance of all weapons(all classes) and then raised his talent to be up to par with the other classes (or have more uniqueness that gives him character.)

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The more I look at the current state of the rework the less excited I am for it, the gun lugger NERF is huge and nothing is being introduced to make up for it, concentrate looks terrible and the fact that lucky bullet is a worse shock trooper is absolutely insane.

But more importantly the current state of it is basically just having the ogryn pay skill points for QOL adjustments while not really addressing any of his issues.

I will say the dodge adjust for knocking lil dudes around should help a bit but alot of these nodes seem rushed and like fatshark is afraid to give the boiiz the same power the others have.

With all that said it’s not the final update and I haven’t played it yet, let’s see what they can do

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Personally the problems I’m seeing is mainly surrounding filler. Current (now “old”) Ogryn talent tree is very slim toward the bottom but had some various picks at the top to fill out a build. Now all of those current talents look really unattractive compared to how loaded the bottom of the tree is with new and significantly better filler.

Things not being connected to Heavyweight at the top makes them a permanent deficit to any build. +50% Coherency Radius is not worth the extra 2 talents, especially behind Steady Grip, when I can take “4 brittle on push” and “+30% corrupt resist” for 1 more talent behind Slam, which is a decent talent.

Box of Hurt still kinda sucks. It’s not a terrible blitz by any means but there are way better CC options for Ogryn if you really want that. Frag Bomb is also just a better option if you need a nuclear last resort to dealing with a deathball. Box of Hurt’s new modifier talent doesn’t seem that interesting at all to make it worth picking.

Ogryn is still the only operative that doesn’t get a raw +10% attack speed talent and makes things feel a bit “unfair” as a result. They can now get up to +20% attack speed taking the Heavy Hitter path but it requires a minimum of 5 light attacks to reach that state.

Point Blank Barrage getting tuned down makes it significantly less attractive in the face of Burst Limiter Override still having the same issues that makes it an unattractive keystone. It has more nickel and dime bonuses that don’t really add up, especially for any weapon that isn’t the twin-linked stubber or maybe ripper gun. +10% (x10) chance to trigger Lucky Bullet on melee kill is kinda neat for other weapons like Rumbler and Kickback but that’s about it.