By the emperor he even came to the forums and whined 
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Mhm, some people in these discussions donât seem to have the ability for perspective. Itâs even funnier and more ironic when they like posts exposing that (accidentally).
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@FatsharkLev I think Iâm gonna tag a different Dev everyday till we actually hear something. Weâve waited literal years for a Dev to actually chime into a mod thread and clarify their stance.
So does Fatshark consider mods like the one posted in this thread acceptable? Is there any planned changes to how you currently handle modding? Is there somewhere we can report mods that cross the line into cheating where something will actually be done about it?
Please can we have a Fatshark employee actually weigh in on this issue?
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only if you see âelitismâ as a âbadâ thing, thus feeling jabbed at is my take.
personally I rather have someone skilled and âelitistâ than an apologetic when it comes to cheating ingame.
hence I reverse engineered the quote cause it fit the vibe when we caught someone cheating back in the age of lan parties 
and itâs a catchy phrase for a t-shirt come to think of it 
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And Iâd be right there with you if you were talking about a game where those consequences matter like Quake or Unreal Tournament, you know a competitive PvP game where personal skill is the only dividing line between players and outcomes (well and spawn location).
But something like this or Left 4 Dead 2 (I know, dead horse, but still 10x more played than this game)? Itâs very silly.
Edit: You gottaâ define elitism for me, I donât really think about that at all in a video game.
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There is no âblood and sweatâ. They do not fight for anything important. They play the game and have fun. Other players may not have enought time or patience for learning the game. So those players do not deserve to have fun with the game? Do not be ill-wishing. Just because someone doesnât âdeserveâ something in your opinion doesnât mean anything unless it hurts someone. And using mods in a PC game that donât affect anyone else certainly doesnât hurt anyone. Play the game for yourself as you like and let others to play the game their way. If you want to choose only certain players to play with the play only with premade teams.
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Yes, in my opinion it is ok. If you like it then why not. Iâm not a player who likes to use such mods, I often make my games intentionally harder, but at the same time I donât see any reason to forbid someone from making their game easier if they want to.
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and it isnât here in the form of being a welcomed companion or literal baggage?
you think skill doesnât divide between someone tagging along for an easy carry and those actually making the win happen?
the moment you play with or against others youâre comparing.
Iâd doubt youâd be happy with a bunch of slacking co-workers even if you worked âfor the same companyâ would you?
or one guy in a sports team always fkking up a match while the rest is playing their guts out.
itâs a form of respect for the effort of others 
now my âtakeâ on elitism would be a frowned upon behavior of flaunting ones superiority (actual or imagined)
this though for me personally is irrelevant since Iâm a strong proponent of âmight makes rightâ and if in fact the player in question can back up his boasting by actual skill, he by definition is part of the âeliteâ
something that some seem to be jealous of rather than being inspired to emulate and achieve.
so basically good players should be âhumbleâ when in fact I care nothing for their character traits as long as they do a good enough job within the match itself.
this aint a campaign for popularity 4 dudes put in time and effort to a common goal.
everyone being equally suited for the task should be a given not the exception
which brings me to
carrying dead weight every other match isnt âfunâ
neither is the âfunâ of the incapable worth more than those putting in the effort to clear said difficulty without cheats/tools.
unfit players can opt to step down a setting or two, those able and enjoying the proper difficulty befitting their skills canât opt out of cheaters and freeloaders.
pretty one sided in my book
some lazy bum doesnât deserve anything other than getting banned if using cheats is his only means to âcatch upâ
but hey, say âI dont have enough time or patience to learn a proper jobâ would you pay my bills cause Iâm certainly entitled to the same standard, aint I?
ironically thatâs about the same sentiment I heard in a documentary today about new york in the 80s
âif you donât wanna get mugged, donât come to the city â
nope itâs the other way around, a proper environment should be the norm, not the exception. no matter the location or inhabitants
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The game has a set of rules, if you cheat and skip some rules, you donât play fair, you make the game easier for yourself, and by extension to the rest of the team.
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Itâs PvE with other players, you breaking the rules is disrespectful to the other 3 players who had no choice in mathmaking with a cheater.
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Your cheats do affect the other 3 players. A few examples:
If you never have to worry about disablers, because you can see them coming through walls, or big pointy arrows, you skip the whole, cover each otherâs back, coop aspect of the game, you no longer need to play as team, disablers become a joke.
If you can tell exactly how much health an enemy has with the healthbar mod, you can not only conserve ammo, but also âstealâ other playerâs kill that make their build function (psykerâs perilous combustion for example, or veteranâs numerous toughness on elite/special kill, or arbiters execution order). Iâve experienced this many times and I can tell when someone is using the healthbars mod to snipe low health elites and specials, itâs extremely annoying and anti-coop.
If you use the auto-auspex complete hacks, you skip the whole point of the minigame, which is to put pressure on the team by forcing them to cover each other in a critical moment.
- the whole point of the game, and itâs various difficulties, is to be challenging, and for you to play in a level that you feel comfortable. When a cheater bring his crap to a higher level, it defeats the whole purpose of playing the hardest difficulties for the other players. We donât want to see you play your rambo fantasies out, most players on highest difficulties play for the fun of the challenge.
If you need cheats and crutches to overcome the silliness of havoc, you donât belong there and thatâs fine, but donât come ruining my experience because you have something to prove, I play the game by itâs rules and beating the absurd amount of BS it throws at us, fairly and by skill knowledge, is the whole point.
The âitâs not PvPâ argument is the weakest you can throw, you ruin the intended difficulty of the game for other players, you are not the main character.
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I recommend you bookmark/save this link for the inevitable next time someone comes in asking/telling how cheat mods donât affect others. They probably wonât or canât read it or will ignore it anyway, but at least youâll have the words ready to go.
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Looping back to-
btw youâre talking to the wrong person, I love joining games about to fail and picking them back up. I have zero problem with your elitism b/c you can back it up, you do you!
Edit: I also agree with you about the disrespect part, both to the team but more to themselves.
Letâs continue down this slope- do you have a better rig than other people? Thatâs not very fair that you have 120 FPS at ultra-high versus little Jimmy who only has a MSI gaming laptop from 5 years ago. I guess weâd better ban anything that can go above 20 FPS.
Please prove to me the last people you quick played with randomly were or werenât using the cheaty mods. The only way I could tell would be if they straight up were calling out hidden enemies which Iâve never had happen to me personally in 2,500+ hours.
Tilting. Windmills. Etc.
I used PvP/those games specifically for Index because we both grew up on ultra-competitive arena shooters.
The larger picture was about the actual consequences/outcomes of using mods/cheats in this game that most players canât even prove are in action at any given time versus a format where that very much matters.
Also STILL not using mods in this game. I even tried finding a no-HUD mod someone had suggested but I canât even get it to load. 
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I have but it isnât common
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So now you do not only want to steal mods from people and disrespect the work of modders you want to even ban people from games they paid for. You are a really nice person I must say.
It is a game, it is not job. There is a big difference. But if you want to compare it, if an employee comes to work and figures out a method to make more money while investing less work, he will probably be promoted instead of fired.
I understand the point youâre trying to make but it sounds very silly in practice. I think we all intuitively understand the difference between having a high end rig and downloading a mod that lets you see enemies through walls. Yes they both lie on the same slope in terms of gameplay advantages but uhhhh, one of those things is clearly much much further down the slope than the other. Not to mention that one of these things is vastly more in your control than the other.
Obviously where you draw that line is somewhat subjective, but again as much as you can try to pretend the line is blurrier than it is, I think most people can quickly comprehend why a mod that gives you an actual number for your alliesâ remaining ammo is not, in fact, equivalent to a mod that solves mini games for you automatically, or one that gives you an ability youâd otherwise have to spend a talent point on and is part of a classâ active ability.
Are you now going to pretend you donât understand the difference?
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You can do all of those if you know the game well. So why donât you ban all veteran players for carrying the game solo and ruining your precious teamplay?
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This all feels very Yin-Yang.
Obviously it was another absurd scenario to illustrate a greater point, but out of curiosity letâs try a thought experiment real quick. What do you think would have more impact to the end results of a match in this game?
An average to below average player using a high-end PC with a solid fiber line, or a high skill player using a clunker that gets barely 20 FPS over wi-fi with just enough signal to stay connected through out the match?
I honestly think the hardware confers a much larger advantage in this extreme scenario (which is why sprinters arenât allowed to use roller blades instead of running shoes lol), but I would be absolutely ridiculous to actually argue that anything that can achieve a certain benchmark should be banned because it creates an unfair advantage for some over others in this game.
So ergo if I think hardware is a bigger contributing factor to success than mod use, I would then have to take the stance that it would be silly to give up any or all of the positives of the mods over the fact that some people are going to artificially perform better.
Kind of back to Vasilas, he seems very indignant that there ARE in fact players using cheaty mods in Havoc (there must be, law of averages and all that), but how many times has someone just performed better because they were just better? Thatâs why I asked for proof, b/c unless there is a mod that can detect other mods I wouldnât know how you could.
Ironically that sounds more like a main character syndrome to me.
Edit: Sorry that isnât a complete argument by itself. The rest of it looks at the rewards/consequences. The reward is the mod user has a more enjoyable experience (or doesnât and stops using it hopefully), and no one else actually knows that they may have lost enjoyment or how much enjoyment it was, or how to even measure it. There is even a segment of players that may enjoy others having those mods on (like some console players).
Since the point of this game is to have fun primarily and not break records in general, I would put more weight on the âlet the babies have their bottleâ side as I have done.
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BTW I really have enjoyed this discussion and all of the different perspectives from folk. If I came off as an âenlightened centrist chaos agentâ (whatever that is) it was only in response to the vitriolic bad faith and name calling crap. Some of this has really gotten my noggin joggin- Cheers.
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Yup thatâs a whole Arby skill tree or Vet ability for that itâs like giving them a free keystone/ability. I get people defend mods because it makes their achievements feel watered down but unfortunately things like this you canât defend or look ridiculous doing so. Itâs overpowered. Not a mod a cheat. If you struggle with the game hey Iâm not judging just donât say it isnât a cheat type energy.
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Soooo close to the actual point.
Hint: If that employee just cooked the books to get that promotionâŚletâs see if you can connect the dots, Iâm not sure how to make it any more obvious since I just typed the answer.
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Hardware is a financial limitation though and not a deliberate choice like using a mod. Also there are recommended hardware specs for games that people can see before they purchase the game. Then there are a variety of options within the game itself, available to all, that allows lower graphics requirements.
I get that youâre trying to suggest advantages can come from different angles but I donât think I can agree to this one. Itâs a bit of a stretch imo, especially as performance is a bit of a lucky dip and can even hit high end rigs that have less compatible software/hardware.
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