8 x 2 = 2 ?!?!?

Repeater Pistol with scrounger. You shoot 8 bullets at once. You’re supposed to get 2 ammo back per crit. 8 x 2 = 16 not 2.

Bug or not the repeater pistol is already one of the weakest choices. There is no reason to pick it over volley crossbow since volley crossbow has knockback(and correct math and penetration that can totally refill the clip if you hit a horde). If the repeater pistol had knockback it would be a fun choice at least. As it stands it’s just too weak.

Add knockback and at least 6-8 ammo back when you empty the chamber and it might not rival the crossbow but would at least be viable.

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I think they changed it a while ago because it allowed infinity ammo without even trying, especially on BH.
I still play it tho, I enjoy it way more.

And yet it is another completely unwarranted change and nerf to an already underwhelming weapon that was only used frequently on BH and BH is the only one who doesn’t care about it since he has the option to not use ammo on blessed shots anyhow. It only goes to show: Anything you try to change on weapons or traits that hits only the evil ranged meta® hits the evil ranged meta the least. It was pretty balanced before, since you had no guarantee to ever crit with your secondary fire and to get something out of it, you’d either need to unload into a horde (and hope you hit with every bullet since RP has almost no penetration) or unload into a target that can withstand the blast… and hope you crit. Now the repeater has no reasonable way to sustain ammo on WHC or Zealot, and the BH is sitting there and laughing since he doesn’t care. Only thing this does is cement a.) other weapons as “the meta” and b.) reduce talent choice even further on BH since no ammo consumption on blesses shots is already overused.

Bravo! You accomplished almost nothing towards this ill-fated goal of “nerfing” the evil ranged meta® and made the weapon even less attractive than before the damage nerf against armour (because the evil BH could one-shot CW with blessed shots).

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This was not noted anywhere in any patch notes to my knowledge so I jump to the conclusion that the daggers buff against bosses was to bring the under performing never picked elf careers back to former glory?
Fatshark has never even acknowledged that they think that the ranged careers even need tweaking, they are not on the evil ranged meta side they are totally silent and random. Writing as if this was an intended nerf and knowing the reasoning behind Fatsharks decision (be it really strange and unnecessary) is not the way to go.

@Fatshark_Hedge
@FatsharkJulia
“not-a-bug” is not good communication.

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Are condescension and rudeness requirements of the forum?

I read these OP so I see that it is a legitimate question/issue but honestly you guys what is with the ire?

Take deep cleansing breaths. It will be okay.

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How would it allow infinity ammo without being a BH? On zealot/WHC it’s effectively the same as rapidly pressing LMB from ammo conservation point of view; The estimated return from scrounger is the same per bullet. You’re looking at lot less “infinite” ammo than you’d for example with crossbow due to its +10% crit while sighted & massive penetration.

The nerf was due to BH’s blessed shot. Kind of shows why it’s an awkward from design point of view. You have to make your weapon interactions unintuitive (see this bug) so you can have an on demand crit. Another option would be not to tie weapon traits to crit.

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So I’m not aware of us having changed this mechanic. I don’t know all the interactions but a long time ago I raised the 8x2=2 bug to the team and it was flagged as intended. I wasn’t aware personally that it at any point gave back 16 ammo so I’ll need to check up on that.

The intended behaviour is that the return is on an action basis, and the repeater 8 projectile shot is just one action hence a return of 2 ammo on the critical.

And Salz’s volley crossbow alt fire fires 3 arrows at once that all proc.
May I ask you to ask your team if the pistol uses the same mechanic as a shotgun and is therefore locked to 2/ alt fire?

Tight coupling is a programming concept that should pretty much always be avoided. It’s generally bad and that is why we have this problem. A pistol and a shotgun are two different weapons. The pistol can empty it’s entire chamber at once but that doesn’t make it a shotgun. Whoever copied the shotgun code for the RP’s alternate fire made a really bad decison.

To fix it they would likely have to edit/rewrite the code for pistols AND shotguns. That would take time that they either can’t/aren’t willing to spend.

Like the other problems with the game I doubt we will see any meaningful explanation for this topic other than “We meant to do that”.

The repeater pistol is now literally the only weapon where multishot does that.
Salty’s volley crossbow secondary returns on every bolt. Keri’s volley crossbow secondary returns on every bolt. Blunderbass and graker, which apparently solely depends on the center pellet hitting, returns not by action. No offense (I know you’re just the messenger, so it’s not directed towards you), but I find this whole “this was intended to begin with” increasingly harder to believe, especially considering the game is pushing half a year in age and none of these supposed “that’s how it’s supposed to work” things have ever been mentioned, do not work consistently (see above) and seem completely arbitrary, random and very obviously unbalanced. I mean, primary fire and secondary fire on all “volley” weapons is completely balanced: You use primary for smaller, single targets or to finish, you use the volley for harder targets. There is no sense nor need to punish the use of the secondary by not allowing procs on every bullet (ignoring the fact that if you are not a crit-heavy build or are BH, chances are rather high you won’t even crit with a single volley).

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The RP fell into a state of obscurity. Cant you just make it so that blessed shot will give you the regular amount before the nerf and regular crits will just give the 2 ammo? BH was the only class I ever used this weapon on before the nerf since the Repeating Xbow is just way better at killing CW with head shots on WH captain cause of the head shot talent he has.

Fair enough. Does this mean arrows penetrating multiple enemies giving 2 ammo per enemy hit is a bug, or is the rule 2 ammo per action per enemy hit or something else?

If it really was always intended (which I heavily dispute), then please explain the wording of the Scrounger ability. It clearly says “critical hits” restore 2.0 ammo. Not critical strikes or critical attacks. By definition of how the game handles criticals, a critical hit is a valid hit on an enemy that deals critical damage. Or are you trying to tell me that critical hits are also supposed to be “action based”, as in: all volley weapons are supposed to only have ONE critical projectile if the attack crits? So the BH is supposed to have only ONE crit bolt in a volley from his blessed shots?

This whole thing raises further and further questions that need immediate clarification.

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Scrounger
“Critical hits restore 2.0 ammo.”

It is 1 shot aka 1 crit, so it’s intended to return 2 ammo. Maybe the choice of words is a bit irritating here. But you have to agree it would be too powerful if every crit that hits an enemy gives back 2 ammo.

That’s exactly what’s broken about Scrounger.
If you shoot one critical projectile: For every enemy you hit you get 2 ammo back resulting in easily 4-6 procs per arrow.
But the pistol uses 8 ammo and can only regain 2 making Scrounger very ineffective.

I generally advocate to limit Scrounger to one proc per ammo consumed.

Aye, it proc’s on most bow weapons, like the elf and krubers longbow. Same for Salty’s xbow and repeater bow. It even proc’s when you use the ULT on WS with a scrounger bow out.

The choice of word is quite clear: A hit is something that connects. You could argue whether it has to deal damage, but implying that a critical hit is suddenly a critical strike or a critical attack goes against the explicit wording and again, it raises so many different questions about the implications that we need clarification. A critical hit is not a critical attack. If it was, it would regenerate ammo without hitting. If all bullets crit in the volley (which they do if the volley crits) and all bullets hit, they are individual critical hits. That makes sense. Even the limited procs is not covered by the wording, as a critical arrow that pierces enemies and hits all of them produces, by definition, multiple hits and they all deal critical damage.

That doesn’t mean that this is set in stone, they can change it if they want. But to imply that this whole mechanic that worked like that since the game was in beta and was never question all of a sudden was NEVER INTENDED to work this way, despite the wording and the very clear definition of what defines a HIT, that is just pulling stuff out of your bottom - especially when you change that with a small patch, without any explanation and just flag the bug report as “not-a-bug”.

It KINDA feels like FS listening to the people complaining about the evil ranged meta® and now want to pretend that this was neeeeeeeeeeeever their intention. Essentially, they are pulling a George Lucas.

Seriously though, I can’t stress enough how urgently this needs an explanation.

FS said it is working as intended and you’re telling them they’re wrong?

What exactly are you owed?

It’s been explained…

Use a different weapon.

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I am not telling anyone anything. I am just saying that this whole affair raises further questions beyond what is happening with the repeater pistol. Besides, nothing has been explained. Hedge said that, basically, that he wasn’t even aware of the issue and the team flagged it as “intended”. That explains absolutely nothing other than that there’s a severe lack of communication.
I am just not a huge fan of completely reworking stuff on just single weapons without any logical sense or consistency, that goes against the explicit description and - more importantly - against how it worked since launch and for half a year.

Common decency to not just throw something like that at me by putting a “not-a-bug” sticker on it and leaving without any explanation what that means for all the things I have written. Other than that, we have more than enough precedence of stuff not working as described (off-balance STILL says it increases damage by 50% and this trait as well as shrapnel and WHC’s witch hunt bonus never stacked - and all of a sudden, they were, apparently, never intended to, as they are “similar”. How are these things similar in ANY logical way?) or the mighty firebomb basically dealing no damage because it was intended for it to work completely different from how it was in VT1.

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It’s no more powerful than any other weapon (bar interaction with blessed shots). Unlike actual shotguns the repeater pistol “shotgun” spends 8 bullets. As I said before the EV return for bullets per bullet spent would be the same as with rapid single shots. What’s “too powerful” about that? Again as I said before it’s actually much weaker than a number of weapons because the EV return is lower due to poorer penetration. So while a long bow has a chance of returning 2-6 (8?) ammo per shot the repeater is stuck to having a chance of returning 2 most of the time.

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