2021 Repeater Pistolas

[alsozara]

@Velsix

Making the alt-fire less reliant on crits to deal effective damage would be helpful, as would be a minor dodge mobility boost. Making the alt-fire slightly less ammo intensive would be great as well

Agreed with all of that. The damn thing is ridiculously crit dependent at the moment, and that goes for both firing modes. Also agreed about mobility. If anything repeater pistol looks like it ought to be the most mobile of his ranged weapons. It’s a single small pistol, after all.

@Velsix

It currently already does have more headshot scaling/finesse/crit magic than BoP but its not enough to make it relevant even on BH atm as they both hit the same 1 shot crit breakpoints, with Repeater losing out on headshot breakpoints because of its raw damage (again I think boosting the headshot damage further would fix that).

To be fair, Repeater does have more ammo so can run Hunter a bit better I’d say. Probably only thing I’d say it has over BoP currently. You’ve kinda gotta give up ammo sustain and play very conservatively with it to make it keep up at special sniping though, and dealing with consecutive specials at mid range or further can be a massive pain and ammo drain.

@Velsix

It’s different from BoP. Faster, worse at long range, better reload efficiency but smaller clip, less damage, less mobile, shotgun alt-fire hybrid. The left click has significantly less movement speed slowdown than BoP’s right click. It’s Saltz’ most unique ranged weapon and one of the more unique ranged weapons in the game, and its primary fire is a part of why that’s the case.

I get this, but currently the alt fire is heavily disincentivised, which I think is why its identity feels very meh to me.

@Velsix

Personally I’d just rather an even focus of both the primary and alt-fire. The gameplay in the mod is fish for melee kill - alt-fire. Fun at first but gets boring quick and is pretty comical.

Again I agree having an even focus would be good. The primary fire only needs minor tweaking though, it’s already very useable, the alt fire is what currently gets no love with the weapon, which is why I tend to focus on that aspect.

Also I can understand why you feel that way about the mod’s combat. Personally I enjoy it, but I can certainly see why some wouldn’t. I do still think primary fire has a use there though. It’s much more effective when you don’t have blessed shots up, which is still very possible to happen when sniping consecutive specials or fighting a boss between hordes.

@Atheosis

BoP is also very different mechanically, and thus feels very different to use. The notion that if you buff the repeater pistol primary attack it’s going to conflict with BoP doesn’t really make sense. Even if they were to fully converge in terms of their ideal use conditions, they would still feel different to use.

Sure, I get that, but currently repeater Pistol is half a weapon and its main unique selling point just doesn’t work very well.

I just don’t get why we’re focusing on the primary fire when that already basically functions fine. It has pretty good breakpoints, especially with Hunter. Meanwhile the alt fire is just a waste of ammo 9 times in 10, unless you’re specifically running the prize bounty build but honestly I don’t know why you would. The rep pistol barely functions at all without crits and limiting yourself to 1 effective shot every 10 seconds on a ranged class is painful. If we’re talking about using it on anyone other than BH that goes double. Alt firing with any of his melee classes is just a mistake. At that point why does the alt fire even exist?

Agreed weapon feel is a big deal, but ideally ranged weapons should really fill at least somewhat different niches as well as feeling different to use.

[Velsix]

@alsozara

The damn thing is ridiculously crit dependent at the moment

It’s a bad balance. The alt-fire can’t kill a Ratling/Warpfire without crits or a 40% power investment, and their head position during firing means trying to headshot with it results in shots missing at anything other than point blank.

The primary fire does less than half of BoP’s damage to armour. The alt-fire does under half of the primary fire’s damage to armour. It’s just under 5 damage, less than a Greatsword charged attack which is about 8.

@alsozara

Also agreed about mobility. If anything repeater pistol looks like it ought to be the most mobile of his ranged weapons. It’s a single small pistol, after all.

Fatshark gave out 100 dodge counts and 1.25 dodge range like free candy to MWP and Griffon-foot, so following the pistol tradition RP deserves better mobility than it has now. Repeater Pistol is half the size of the Repeater Handgun, should at least be more mobile than that. I’d say Flail dodge (4 dodge count, 1.15 dodge range) or higher would be appropriate.

@alsozara

To be fair, Repeater does have more ammo so can run Hunter a bit better I’d say.

BoP doesn’t have to run Hunter to hit the same one shot bodyshot breakpoints on specials, so any ammo advantage Repeater has is unfortunately negated by BoP getting to run Scrounger (referring to Official Realm).
For example, BoP can run bodyshot Assassins, Ratlings/Warpfire Throwers, Leeches/Blights and Packmasters all with EP, 40% Crit Power, 20% Skaven, Open Wounds and Blessed Combat’s ranged damage buff, without Hunter, while Repeater Pistol can’t one shot crit bodyshot Packmasters ever even with Hunter.

Repeater does have decent synergy with a Salvaged Ammo build’s ammo return, but at the same time doesn’t really work as well with the reload on melee kill like Crossbow does, nor does it benefit from it as much as something like BoP which has poor reload efficiency.

@alsozara

running the prize bounty build but honestly I don’t know why you would.

At the same time, I don’t know why anyone would run anything other than the Prize Bounty build in the mod.

@alsozara

Also I can understand why you feel that way about the mod’s combat. Personally I enjoy it, but I can certainly see why some wouldn’t. I do still think primary fire has a use there though. It’s much more effective when you don’t have blessed shots up, which is still very possible to happen when sniping consecutive specials or fighting a boss between hordes.

Sorry, I’ve been limited in my perspective here. I was looking at it from dwonsc3+, where the primary fire doesn’t hit any breakpoints and there’s always something to kill in melee (made easier by sustainable Hunter due to Prize Bounty changes), which meant I was very regularly using the alt-fire on just about everything.
It’s basically lest ammo costly to use the alt-fire to kill specials at that point. On Cata 1 however you’re right, it should still make use of the primary fire when Blessed Shots is on cooldown. I knew it was getting silly when I was using the alt-fire on a few trash mobs because I could get away with it.
Worth noting the Repeater Pistol’s alt-fire on BH picks up breakpoint value on Cata 4.

I’m just very against making Repeater Pistol practically a BH only weapon. With a bit more headshot damage it would hit great breakpoints on WHC.

@alsozara

If we’re talking about using it on anyone other than BH that goes double. Alt firing with any of his melee classes is just a mistake. At that point why does the alt fire even exist?

I agree. I think tweaks to the alt-fire are a good idea, either by making it more impactful or less ammo intensive, and I concede that the alt-fire needs more work done to it than the primary fire.

[alsozara]

@Velsix

At the same time, I don’t know why anyone would run anything other than the Prize Bounty build in the mod.

Only responding to this because I pretty much just agree with everything else you said and have nothing to add. I do still see a place for the other two talents on that row in the mod, though obviously not for rep pistol.

Blessed combat is still a nice damage boost that I imagine can help with ranged breakpoints and give a little boost in melee.

Cruel Fortune still makes sense for a bunch of weapons like volley bow if you mostly want to backline and avoid melee where possible. Obviously that’s a much lower dps playstyle but I think it’s still a valid way to play the class and Cruel Fortunes fits well for that playstyle even with the mod changes.

You should voice these concerns in the mod thread though. I’m also uneasy about the change so it would be good to have your opinion there.

[Velsix]

@alsozara

Blessed combat is still a nice damage boost that I imagine can help with ranged breakpoints and give a little boost in melee.

The melee boost is only for 6 hits tops. For BH’s melee game that’s going to be 3-4 infantry kills, provided they have fired 6 shots to get 6 stacks. It’s nice to have the ranged boost up all the time pretty much, but I think you’re forgetting that Prize Bounty means free Hunter trait + Job Well Done, while Blessed Combat requires Salvaged Ammunition to run Hunter, and otherwise would use Scrounger.

@alsozara

Cruel Fortune still makes sense for a bunch of weapons like volley bow if you mostly want to backline and avoid melee where possible. Obviously that’s a much lower dps playstyle but I think it’s still a valid way to play the class and Cruel Fortunes fits well for that playstyle even with the mod changes.

Zealot uses Volley for pure ranged better than BH does. I don’t think it really compares to BH’s other options. Besides, BH is forced to engage in melee for thp sustain, and the playstyle you’re referring to doesn’t make use of the Blessed Kill melee kill crit reset passive they’ve added, making it inherently suboptimal before talent choice even comes into play. It’s an option, but it’s certainly not competitive, and it’s hardly as if Volley doesn’t work with Prize Bounty for a pure ranged build anyway, while also letting BH get away with less reloads and longer bursts.

@alsozara

You should voice these concerns in the mod thread though. I’m also uneasy about the change so it would be good to have your opinion there.

I’m not sure if it would reach anyone to be honest. I asked questions in my last reply in that thread and didn’t get any answers.

[alsozara]

Fair. I agree they’re both suboptimal options in the mod, I do think there’s a place based on playstyle preference though. Not everyone plays the game to be optimal.

Either way it definitely introduces its own problems. I just honestly really enjoyed RP again for the first time in a long while with the mod. Anyway this is very off topic at this point so probably best we leave the mod discussion there.

[James]

@alsozara

Fair. I agree they’re both suboptimal options in the mod

Not too far off topic, after all BH balance is tied heavily to Saltz ranged balance.
Prize Bounty will always be the strongest pick in the mod, regardless of weapon choice.
If Prize Bounty was built in rather than melee reset, it might be a different story.

---

Blessed Shot: Guaranteed ranged crit every 10 seconds. Does not consume ammunition.

Blessed Combat: Melee kills reset the cooldown of Blessed Shot.

Cruel Fortune: Gain increased fire rate and consume no ammunition for 3 seconds after a Blessed Shot. No longer a guaranteed crit.
(Essentially a cooldown based V1 Haste for your spammy weapons)

Prize Bounty: _________________

There’s more room for build diversity this way and Blessed Shot cooldown could be reduced to 8 seconds if Blessed Combat is still the highly favored talent.

Prize Bounty could honestly be whatever, not everyone enjoys the melee reset playstyle or wants to give up their guaranteed crit.
However, I’d rather see other ammunition sustain talents elsewhere like you know… improving Salvaged Ammunition

[BongoSkaggs]

@James

However, I’d rather see other ammunition sustain talents elsewhere like you know… improving Salvaged Ammunition

Let’s not and say we did. I’d be concerned about how much more dominant BH would be in his role if he had a really good ammo generation talent. Being married to Scrounger as he is is one of his small number of weaknesses.

I’d also hate to see his talent diversity take a nose dive because Job Well Done suddenly stops being appealing in pretty much all circumstances.

[alsozara]

@BongoSkaggs

I’d be concerned about how much more dominant BH would be in his role if he had a really good ammo generation talent.

Could you remind me again what his role is exactly other than killing monsters that may not show even show up on a run way too fast? Is it being a barely better special sniper than a melee class with a sniper weapon?

Ok yeah I know griffinfoot exists now so he has another string to his bow. I’ve just rarely seen people above Legend suggest BH is one ammo talent away from being too good. Would genuinely be curious to read an elaboration if you’d be happy to provide one.

[BongoSkaggs]

@alsozara

Could you remind me again what his role is exactly other than killing monsters that may not show even show up on a run way too fast? Is it being a barely better special sniper than a melee class with a sniper weapon?

Ok yeah I know griffinfoot exists now so he has another string to his bow. I’ve just rarely seen people above Legend suggest BH is one ammo talent away from being too good. Would genuinely be curious to read an elaboration if you’d be happy to provide one.

My assertion has always been that BH is already too strong in unmodded content due to the mere presence of Double Shotted + Blessed Shots.

The former is a one stop shop boss deletion tool that gives BH quite a bit more flexibility in his ranged weapon choice than the other ranged damage careers. And the latter already allows the career to access many ridiculous breakpoints already. Removing reliance on Scrounger procs lets Hunter join the fray and gives us such silly things as crossbow 1 shotting maulers on a bodyshot crit for zero property investment and BoP 1 shotting monks with a bodyshot crit.

Hell, go look at some of the various Huntsman complaint threads littered around the forum. A very capable and powerful career that is marginalized by large swaths of the community largely because does the same thing as BH, but without the easy bodyshot breakpoints of forced crits plus less easy and consistent boss damage. Why give BH another free 25% damage on top of that?

[zaru]

@alsozara

Could you remind me again what his role is exactly other than killing monsters that may not show even show up on a run way too fast? Is it being a barely better special sniper than a melee class with a sniper weapon?

Ok yeah I know griffinfoot exists now so he has another string to his bow. I’ve just rarely seen people above Legend suggest BH is one ammo talent away from being too good. Would genuinely be curious to read an elaboration if you’d be happy to provide one.

I can’t speak for modded modes due to possibly unreachable breakpoints, but on the average Cata run, a proper Bounty Hunter can remove the vast majority of specials and more than half of elites from existence before they can turn into anything even resembling a threat. WITHOUT the need to be good at headshots or manage ammo.
This completely frees up the rest of the team (especially with so many running Grail Knight, Slayer etc.) and lets them do their job undisturbed, which is particularly valuable in quickplay where there is zero communication under pressure.

Sure a Merc with Repeater, WHC with crossbow etc. can do a well enough sniping job in capable hands while doing much better under melee pressure, but up to base Cata, the sheer ease of killing specials/elites at practically any range EVERY FEW SECONDS with bodyshots REALLY dominates the scoreboard and makes runs significantly easier.
(Same applies to Griffinfoot for hordes and unarmored enemies, but that’s a team fun destroyer like Flamethrowers)

[James]

@BongoSkaggs

BH is already too strong in unmodded content due to the mere presence of Double Shotted + Blessed Shots.

We all agree Double Shotted is too easy and needs to be more difficult; nuking the stagger would work.
I’d happily forego guaranteed crits for a more rounded & complete kit.

Not really fond of his Scrounger reliance, feels more like a career design flaw than a weakness; it’s apparent in Chaos Wastes.

[alsozara]

I don’t wanna turn this into a BH argument thread but I will respectfully voice my disagreement with a number of your points. Honestly I’m not terribly good at this game, from your posts around here I’d hazard a guess you’re much better than I am and I certainly respect your opinion on the matter even if I don’t quite agree.

@BongoSkaggs

The former is a one stop shop boss deletion tool that gives BH quite a bit more flexibility in his ranged weapon choice than the other ranged damage careers.

I’m pretty sure everyone agrees double shotted is way too strong against bosses, though he’s certainly not alone there. I do think super high boss damage is of limited value outside of twitch though. Firstly obviously you might not even encounter one, and if you do there’s so much boss damage flying around these days I only ever see it making or breaking a base Cata run if you end up on a team with basically no other good boss DPS classes, which I can’t say is a situation I’ve run into awfully often. To be clear I am absolutely not saying double shotted isn’t very problematic, I just don’t think that alone plays a big part in his overall impact on the success of a run.

@BongoSkaggs

And the latter already allows the career to access many ridiculous breakpoints already.

That’s certainly true, but it does also put the majority of your damage on a cooldown, that unlike other ranged careers forces you into melee to get good uptime. The potential damage is certainly good, but I also wouldn’t call it free or easy damage compared to other ranged careers. It also drops off when sniping consecutive enemies which is a) a very common situation in Cata and b) not an issue most ranged careers have to worry about. They don’t snipe one enemy then suddenly have to wait 10 seconds or run up to kill stuff in melee for most of their damage to come back. They also get to usually spam their ranged weapon safely from the backlines with no ammo concerns. It’s a matter of burst vs consistency, and I think consistency is very valuable.

@BongoSkaggs

Hell, go look at some of the various Huntsman complaint threads littered around the forum. A very capable and powerful career that is marginalized by large swaths of the community largely because does the same thing as BH, but without the easy bodyshot breakpoints of forced crits plus less easy and consistent boss damage

I don’t really know what to say about those threads because they’ve never lined up with my personal experience. I certainly don’t find HS harder to play in Cata, in some ways he feels easier to me. And I have many times the hours in BH than I do HS. I don’t really wanna turn this into yet another BH vs HS thread but the only HS build I find harder to get equivalent results out of is longbow. All his other ranged weapons in my experience are very easy to use and be effective with, and none of them require you to farm ammo with melee kills. You just go brrrrrrr and spam all day. Headshots be damned. Who cares about crit breakpoints when handgun body shots everything 100% of the time and rep handgun and BB can just be spammed infinitely.

@zaru

I can’t speak for modded modes

To be clear neither can I, nor is my intention to bring them into this discussion.

@zaru

Bounty Hunter can remove the vast majority of specials and more than half of elites from existence before they can turn into anything even resembling a threa

Every ranged class can do this on Cata with a passably skilled person at the helm.

@zaru

WITHOUT the need to be good at headshots or manage ammo.

Blessed shots is still gonna be down when you need it plenty in a run, and at that point you better head shot like everyone else. You know, or just shoot twice, also something every ranged career can do that people seem to overlook. And if we’re talking ammo regen BH is clearly the worst of any ranged career in that regard. Try to spam something like BoP the same amount any ranged career can spam their ranged weapon without repeatedly farming ammo on hordes. You’ll run out surprisingly quickly.

[Sleezy]

@Velsix

doesn’t break or cleave shields and doesn’t cleave armour.

Imo, shields are the real problem. It needs either shield breaking or it needs to bypass shields altogether. I honestly think that’d be enough to make it a really good weapon on BH.

[alsozara]

@Sleezy

It needs either shield breaking or it needs to bypass shields altogether.

I feel like breaking makes more sense and is in line with other shotgun blasts.

Funny you mention that though because just yesterday I witnessed a single shielded clan rat tank a full crit alt fire and the little dude didn’t even drop his guard for a moment!

I strongly disagree that’d make it good on its own though. The alt fire still has rubbish stats and is only really useable with the meme Prize Bounty build. That seems like a pretty poor place to leave the weapon. I think @Velsix is on the right track with his suggestions.

[BongoSkaggs]

@James

Not really fond of his Scrounger reliance, feels more like a career design flaw than a weakness; it’s apparent in Chaos Wastes.

When it comes to the holistic design of the game I’d go the other way. The design flaw is the normalization of near infinite ammo, not occasionally needing to care about supplies.

Of course that’s not at all how the game has worked for a very, very long time. So it’s not the most germane topic of conversation.

@alsozara

I’m pretty sure everyone agrees double shotted is way too strong against bosses, though he’s certainly not alone there.

The point is that, among the ranged damage careers, he is alone. Double Shotted is far ahead of the pack in both power and build potential.

The only other ranged career that has a comprehensive boss damage talent is Waystalker’s Piercing Shot. Which is it’s own kettle of fish, but still not as powerful as Double Shotted due to lacking the ability to stunlock them for easy resets. Not to mention that Piercing Shot competes with Waystalker’s sole ammo regeneration talent (which used to be more important before DLC power creep) and Double Shotted competes with meme talents.

For everyone else boss damage is severely limited by weapon choice. RV is entirely limited to the Masterwork Pistol. Huntsman’s effectiveness drops the further away you get from manbow. Sienna is best with beam staff or fireball depending on career and talents. Engi kinda gets away from it by virtue of the crankgun being decent on bosses by default, but trollhammer is still much better.

Some careers have other perks, separate from boss damage, that make them appealing to teams; like RV’s support options or BW’s ridiculous stagger. Others are not so lucky

@alsozara

I do think super high boss damage is of limited value outside of twitch though. Firstly obviously you might not even encounter one, and if you do there’s so much boss damage flying around these days I only ever see it making or breaking a base Cata run if you end up on a team with basically no other good boss DPS classes, which I can’t say is a situation I’ve run into awfully often.

I feel like this is a poor way of looking at the game’s issues. Because viewed through the lens of “it doesn’t make or break most runs” there is basically nothing in the game that is actually OP.

@alsozara

It’s a matter of burst vs consistency, and I think consistency is very valuable.

Coincidentally, due to Blessed Shot, being able to freely use Hunter over Scrounger would be a large buff to both burst and consistency. One of the reasons beam staff, hagbane, and moonbow have been so OP for so long is that they can utilize Barrage extremely effectively for free 25% damage over other weapons.

[Adelion]

@BongoSkaggs

So it’s not the most germane topic of conversation.

+ 1 because I learned a new word today (which I will have forgotten tomorrow again).

[alsozara]

@BongoSkaggs

The point is that, among the ranged damage careers, he is alone. Double Shotted is far ahead of the pack in both power and build potential.

I basically agree with you here, as does I think everyone, so let’s leave that point.

@BongoSkaggs

Coincidentally, due to Blessed Shot, being able to freely use Hunter over Scrounger would be a large buff to both burst and consistency. One of the reasons beam staff, hagbane, and moonbow have been so OP for so long is that they can utilize Barrage extremely effectively for free 25% damage over other weapons.

Yeah I get that. My arguments weren’t about how strong a theoretical BH with better ammo sustain would be, but about his current state, since you said he’s too strong for Cata as is. I made my points there, none of which you addressed, but I want to be clear that anything that confers a buff to BH should come packaged with a double shotted nerf for sure. Do you really think just rewards is a meme talent though? I frequently take it over double shotted for better consistent use throughout a run, and I’ve seen @Velsix do the same in true solos. Indiscriminate is the only meme talent on that row in my eyes.

[BongoSkaggs]

@alsozara

I made my points there, none of which you addressed

I apologize if you feel I missed the points you were trying to make. Would you like to highlight or restate them? I felt you were needlessly downplaying the value BH’s boss damage brings to a team and was largely focused on responding to that.

@alsozara

Do you really think just rewards is a meme talent though? I frequently take it over double shotted for better consistent use throughout a run, and I’ve seen @Velsix do the same in true solos. Indiscriminate is the only meme talent on that row in my eyes.

Velsix also runs Steel Crescendo in his BH true solos. I don’t feel that absolves a talent from memehood because true solos are such an incredibly niche scenario.

In normal play I don’t find much, if any value in the having Locked & Loaded’s shotgun spray available. So to my eyes Just Reward not only lacks a lot of the cooldown reduction that Double Shotted has, but also lacks in meaningful damage as well.

[alsozara]

@BongoSkaggs

I apologize if you feel I missed the points you were trying to make. Would you like to highlight or restate them? I felt you were needlessly downplaying the value BH’s boss damage brings to a team and was largely focused on responding to that.

I get that. Not fussed either way. My previous post is still there if there’s anything you think is wrong you want to respond to. I simply disagree BH in his current state is overpowered for base Cata.

@BongoSkaggs

Velsix also runs Steel Crescendo in his BH true solos. I don’t feel that absolves a talent from memehood because true solos are such an incredibly niche scenario.

Fair point. My main point was that Just Rewards is more consistent for enemies that aren’t bosses and I think that’s valuable.

@BongoSkaggs

In normal play I don’t find much, if any value in the having Locked & Loaded’s shotgun spray available. So to my eyes Just Reward not only lacks a lot of the cooldown reduction that Double Shotted has, but also lacks in meaningful damage as well.

Saying it lacks on cooldown seems a bit off. The only ways I know to consistently get the full 80% with double shotted on Cata is shooting a boss, or shooting a CW without blessed shots active. Yes there is the weird interaction where you always get full cooldown as client, which honestly has always felt like a bug if anything. On top of all that it’s head shot reliant. Maybe it’s just because I am not a head shot god and mostly play as host, but I inevitably get more Ults over a run with Just Rewards, and as a bonus I don’t need to worry about headshotting with it, which usually means faster snipes and no losing all my CDR because the slot system made a CW who was running directly at me suddenly jank to the side at the last second.

[Velsix]

@BongoSkaggs

I don’t feel that absolves a talent from memehood because true solos are such an incredibly niche scenario.

Just Reward gives good value relative to the effort it requires. Double-shotted is just a bit good right now. If a player can consistently hit headshots, should Just Reward still be competitive? Probably not. As host when getting a single headshot it’s only a 20% difference, and let’s not pretend BH doesn’t already deal decent boss damage with most of Saltz’ ranged weapons. Only exceptions to that are BoP and Griffon-foot.

Just Reward doesn’t look bad when compared to the level 30 talents other ranged careers have. Maybe the base ult doesn’t give good enough value? I don’t know, but the talent itself is fine.

It’s a pretty okay dps increase for how free it is. Besides, it’s there for bodyshotting under pressure.

@BongoSkaggs

Velsix also runs Steel Crescendo in his BH true solos. I don’t feel that absolves a talent from memehood because true solos are such an incredibly niche scenario.

Steel Crescendo is also bad in true solo. I’m just an attack speed fanatic.

@BongoSkaggs

I felt you were needlessly downplaying the value BH’s boss damage brings to a team and was largely focused on responding to that.

@alsozara

I get that. Not fussed either way. My previous post is still there if there’s anything you think is wrong you want to respond to. I simply disagree BH in his current state is overpowered for base Cata.

Probably starting to get off topic.