Vote kick seems to have been disabled at the end of the level now. We just had a hard fought Skittergate where a dwarf player decided to teamkill at the end after being called out numerous times over the game for FF and abandoning the team.
Imagine my shock when I go to Votekick him as he’s actually killing the team and ruining our good book run and I can’t do it because Fatshark decided to make it impossible to vote at the end in some churlish way of dealing with abuse.
You can’t kick over 1 or 2 minor incidents that are heeded in the middle of it. Vote kicking takes time, and if players have no recourse then these people can act as they want. Host kick provides an instantaneous and ever-present solution if someone goes too far.
There will always be grief and abuse. But host kick will solve it. Nothing changes the fact he was given several chances - he was forgiven - and then could not be punished when he acted out in a way that destroyed the game for three other people.
I understand your frustration, but trolls will inevitably subvert any grief-prevention system. Maybe they can add something that can re-enable vote kick if enough FF has been done, but nothing can prevent someone from ruining your run if they want to.
In Vermintide 1 with the mods, I was able to resolve multiple situations of bad teammates. Someone runs ahead with grim and dies, spawn a new one. Someone tries to FF and quit, host kick and ban. Someone kills someone else or FF damages, spawn meds, we could solve the issues.
But now with our options dimming, it’s just going to make it easier for these people to get away with it. We had the solutions once, and we need them again. Vermintide 2’s popularity has exploded and it’s going to be on a naturally bigger scale.
Spawning a new grim when someone dies? To me that is never appropriate, and is cheating.
You will have people who host games, then kick people at the very end for laughs.
I don’t think more authority for players is the answer. I think a report system with actionable offenses is the best way to deal with it. Giving power to players is giving power to trolls.
I touched the subject of an automated system and explained why it’s the worst possible solution. I was with Vermintide 1 since the start. The common occurrences we’ve seen: people getting kicked at the end, isolated incidents of griefing (which mine is too) happened, and they happened significantly less when mods were introduced.
An automated report system gives power to people who then use it to defame others. Host kick simply protects the game at a local level. Making it global will lead to serious problems that can also be avoided.
Spawning a new grim in every instance I did was valid because the person abandoned the team, died, then quit, and everyone else’s experience was consequently hurt for it and that is not fair to them. This may just return with Steam Workshop support, but we’ll see.
sucks you got trolled , guess i have been luckier than most 130 hours in release and 70 in closed beta and never once had to use the votekick to get rid of a troll. but i did see it getting abused , so on the whole its less tools for trolling which has to be a step forward.
lets hope they introduce some actual anti toxicity measures before long
I think the solution that Fatshark is dancing around here is that players need to be able to ban/restrict the players that they play with. You can’t stop every isolated instance of griefing. But you can and SHOULD allow players to prevent matchmaking with players that they feel or know are toxic to prevent continued and persistent griefing. Is someone is being toxic in your game? Ban them once and never be worried about them ruining your experience again. If a group of players are being toxic to you, put them on your ban list and make sure they can never matchmake with you again. If a group of players is consistently toxic to everyone they meet, people will eventually all have them on a restricted/banned list and they won’t be able to play with anyone else. This is honestly as good a deterrent as any for preventing griefing.
With these strange and contorted rules for when and if someone can kick another player, Fatshark is just opening up new avenues of griefing that is just giving themselves more trouble than they are fixing, all because they don’t want to implement a ban list.
I think there’s a lot of subjective experiences with these systems. I don’t see Overwatch’s system as a bad example. Numerous times I’ve reported toxic players, and gotten messages about actions being taken on them. I’ve never had any experience with false reporting actually having any impact. It takes many reports before a case is reviewed, nobody has complete control.
An avoid player option would do good, but doesn’t prevent that player from griefing in any game they join in the future, and no action will be taken on them without additional centralized data about a player. Holding players accountable for their submitted reports, and reports against them, creates a way to punish and prevent griefers. People who are found to submit false reports should also be punished.
I’m not claiming the current solution is good, or even good enough, but it’s what they have in the game right now and works to the ends it was designed for. They improved it in a quick and simple way for the time being, and I’m certain they will continue to improve the system over time.
It’s the beauty of host kick. If people police their own games, then the pressure of repercussion is always there, if someone chooses to kill the game. Host kick avoids the can of worms of people getting slapped down globally by a much more easily abused automated system, and people can choose to keep the very few (emphasis important on this being a minority within a minority) malicious people out of the game with a personal ban list. If people keep getting kicked from the game when suspect actions are commented on, then it’s up to them to sort themselves out.
It can be anything. Malice, pure and simple, from people intending to ruin games for jollies. It could be a situation out of hand. It’s a powerful equalizer. And like all things, it can be abused, but it will protect the game more than harm it.
Host kick does not put power into the hands of trolls more so than Friendly Fire puts the potential of griefing into anybody else. It just means someone gets kicked sooner if they want to engage in that last minute vote to clear a space on a lark. Based on 1200 hours of Vermintide 1, of having my fingers on the pulse of the community, it is the only way forward. Player freedom and control is more important than the prejudices of others affecting someone for life.
Overwatch has made the news multiple times for all the wrong reasons. If it’s not porn, it’s getting kicked because you refused to play a character someone wanted you to play in a pug. Blizzard has the audacity to think that they can police every behavior in the game and their decried goal of searching through the social media and off-game handles of their users for bad behavior, even if it is only for their streamers and leagues, has not won them any favors. The fact that people can gain trusted status or be considered ‘better reporters’ in the game is exactly what we need to avoid.
There is a constant stream of hilarious headlines denoting the comedy of their community. People wanting ‘gg’ banned because they think it means ‘git gud’ and they hate being condescended to. People anxious because people were being NICE in the game to them for once…
I think you’re giving way too much credit to media as a source of objective analysis. You can’t be kicked from a game by anyone. That isn’t possible. People get reported for playing one and only one hero because that’s considered poor teamwork, but they don’t get kicked from the game. They can be suspended or banned if enough people report them for the same thing over time. It’s not easily abusable at all. I’ve played up to masters rank competitive Overwatch, and what you’re describing doesn’t align with my experiences at all. Using social media or streams as proof of bannable offenses for high profile players only seems logical to me. It’s hard evidence.
In any case, I’m not here to debate Overwatch.
The fact of the matter is that this forum was awash with people complaining about being kicked right before the bridge of shadows. What do you do when you get kicked by the host at the end of a game? What’s to stop someone from doing that again and again in every game they host? What about eventually playing on dedicated servers where there is no host?
I played V1 for 200+ hours, and I have been kicked from a lot of games randomly on the whim of the host even with the small community it had. I don’t like giving every host the power to kick players anytime they want for any reason. It’s too much power, and very easily used for the wrong reasons (resulting in the current state of the kick system). Don’t like unchained sienna? Kicked. Don’t like specific weapon loadout? Kicked. Someone let the loot rat escape. Kicked. It’s not going to work out in a positive way in the eyes of the community, and it already isn’t working out that well.
You can be the judge. Here are some times that come to memory of me being kicked in V1:
I pick up a tome in a game, i hear a young kid on the mic yelling at me about picking it up because he needs loot. I explained to him that everyone benefits no matter who carries it, and then i got vote kicked.
I block+revive, get called a hacker, get vote kicked
People who dont use QOL mods and think I cheat because I knew what their gear was, got kicked
Just before a map ends I get a messaage “sorry dude, kicking you to bring a friend in” before being kicked.
I didn’t revive the host before another person, and i got kicked
These weren’t even trolls, they were just random people ignorant of the mechanics, the mods, and general etiquette of the game. People abusing the system to give friends free wins and loot. These people, plus anybody who wants to grief, are given full authority over other people playing with them.
If you’ve never run into someone like that, that’s wonderful. But let’s not pretend that it doesn’t happen.
Devs should stop to listen whiners, who had been kicked at the end of the round and after that weeping on the forums “votekick is bad, remove it!” Do you afraid of being kicked for no reason? There is one and only one solution for it: Host Your Own Game With Your Friends. Period. You can’t change the society, as well as you can’t force other people to play the way they don’t want to play. So, there always will be trolls and people who don’t like your preferred playstyle, and the only thing you can do - don’t playing with them at all. That’s why the host kick is necessary - host must be a master in his lobby in order to make a game comfortable for him and his friends . And all that complains about votekick just lead us in the situation, when must of the good players just leave the game because of inability to remove trolls and stupid toxic players from their lobby, so the game will become unplayable for them.
God, no. That was a horrible mechanic in Vermintide 1 and should have never been in place as countless forum threads have demonstrated. While I was never personally affected by it (nah, stop, I was kicked one time because I opened a chest) it is very easy to see that power (in this case the right to expel players) concentrated on single persons is never, like really never a good idea.
I mean the change has been made because people complained that they got trolled by end level majority vote kicking. And you will solve this problem by making it actually easier? If anything griefing will become easier. And the old “Just host your own game” stupidity can’t be the solution to such problems and it should never be the solution to such problems. And not everyone can host reliable anyway, so why punish them? The solution right now is not perfect but it is working. Personally, I think, the chance of running into a person griefing is far smaller than running into a Person host kicking for the most stupid reasons (like “You opened a chest.”).
The way the griefing was done here was by friendly fire. That is bad, but technically, you had the option to down him yourself. So the power was concentrated in his hand. If he is dead he can’t grieve anymore. In the worst case you would lose experience and a grim. But who cares. Being overly fixated on grims isn’t healthy anyway.
So, no again. Host kicking makes griefing actually easier unless someone is in dire control need and constantly hosts himself.
The only real solution would be for the community to develop some kind of maturity in all directions and not blame it on everyone else if things go south.
Had a similar problem as the OP. Now, I don’t mind not being able to kick-vote people right at the end of a map, but the option was disabled in the middle of it, not the end. And sorry, but after a worthless player died for the 5th on a higher difficulty dragging the whole team down, wasting all of out healing options just to keep him alive for 1min more at times it was too much. I’ve had people get all up in arms and literally hold the whole game hostage by refusing to progress as to, for example, trigger the warcamp boss, and left the game on and going AFK till people gave up and left. This is catering more to the trolls than to the people that have to deal with such.
If this is kept this way I’d rather simply disconnect as host than tolerate such players. Or simply kick right at the start for any real or imagined shortcoming as to make sure I wouldn’t regret not doing so down the line.
hello evryone, first i apologize for my bad english and second i wanna to tell u what personaly happen to me today.
I was looking for a game in champion mode, when i found match already started so i decide to join.
Seem like a normal game but the elve (host) began to shoot me, not directly because i was between him and the foes, then i ask him gently to aim better and do not shoot me. He said me to go and make my bed (it was 9 a.m.) so i decide to ignore him for a while until he start to provoke me, shooting me at feet, then i lost the reason! then i directly shoot him face with my shotgun, after that they insult me and kick me from the game, and we was near to the end, i decide to take my revenge. I rejoin him when they have already reached boss killing everyone. in the end i think it’s a shame for a good game, which should be cooperative have this kind of community.
