I wonder if there couldn’t be another skill for the Zealot instead of the fire grenade.
Maybe a smaller grenade that regenerates? A targetted (1 player) buff?
Using grenades is kind of meh for Zealot. Sure you can, but they are not very good. The knives that come back are often picked for that exact reason - they come back.
Same way with Arbites, if you’re using mines or nades, you often pick the “no dog” option just to have them regenerate.
Psyker doesn’t use grenades and it feels better. It also helps with the grenade economy of the others.
I don’t know if there are mini figures for warhammer of zealots and if they have some molotov/ fire grenade skill. There is the flamer, so it might be a holy fire type of deal… but yeah. Could use some love.
oh, some relic type instead of grenade, so zealot throws it on the ground it do some effects buffs (+tdr / +dmg dealt / armour penetration) or debuffs (like weakening armour type of enemies / make them deal less dmg / increase incoming stagger in radius of effect), or just make this relic do some dmg like fire grenades but different
this relic can be rechargeable as it some holy thing
Fire grenades are not even DoT technically. They create a hazard zone that damages enemies when they stand in it. DoT weapons and abilities put a DoT condition on an affected enemy (soulblaze, bleeding, burning etc.) that can stack up to a certain limit with damage scaling exponentially with the number of stacks. Fire grenades just do some flat damage every X milliseconds, no scaling, no condition.
Also improving Zealot grenades is easy: give them a conditional recharge. Or rather give Zealot a talent node that allows for a Blitz conditional recharge.
‘Gain 1 Blitz charge every 25 weakspot kills’ or something.
And make the fire nade a proper DoT, of course. Maybe increase the radius, it won’t break anything.
I think a simple way to look at blitzes is that they should be balanced between impact and availability. A blitz that is less impactful when used should be more available to the player (i.e larger number and/or regen). A blitz that is more impactful when used should be less available to the player (i.e. lower number, no regen). The issue with zealot grenades is that they’re not very impactful AND not very available.
Deleted a previous comment over how badly I worded it, but I still think it’d be cool if one of those grenades had a spreading effect instead of a zoning effect.
Yeah the takeaway from this thread is that chemnades are too strong, probably the whole chem stuff. It is nice to have a dot that works on carapace but maybe it should then have another weakness?
I’m curious. Is Chem toxin a problem outside of Chem nades and needle pistol (specifically needle pistol with trivial access to infinite ammo, mind you)?
Would probably be helpful to discern if the dot itself needs to be addressed, or just specific problematic applicators of it. After all Chem nade can be nerfed effectively without changing the dot stats. Needle pistol can potentially have infinite ammo taken away from it. Best to target changes carefully as to not have knock on effects to things that are fine.
Not that I’m stating chem toxin as a whole isn’t a problem. I don’t own Scum I don’t really know. That first paragraph was not a rhetorical question, to be clear.
Well that’s definitely the first time I’ve heard zealot’s fire grenades described as “incredibly strong” lol.
Joking aside, I do understand your point that maybe they shouldn’t be looked at as a source of damage specifically. That could work well if you had a lot more access to them. But the fact remains that the fire grenade is only going to kill chaff enemies, and not particularly quickly at that. Enemies can still walk around it (if there is a path), and stronger enemies will still ignore it. It doesn’t feel very impactful when you use one. So I think the options are to either make them more impactful (more damage, longer duration, more effect on armor, etc…) or to make them more available (larger number, regen). I still have a very hard time justifying picking up grenades when almost anyone else on my team can use them in a much more impactful way.
And yes, I do understand that nerfing all of the over-performing grenades on the other classes along with enemy armor spam is an overall better option that doesn’t advance power creep. I just don’t think Fatshark will realistically do that.
I play exclusively Mortis Trials currently, and there is plenty of grenades refills as well as the awesome perk that gives you a grenade every 20 seconds.
Regular missions don’t give you enough grenades. Perhaps another way to address the problem would be to give the Zealot 15 or 20 fire grenades at mission start.
It seems like Fatshark has already figured this out with hive scum. The blackout grenade is much less impactful but regenerates, so you can use it a lot throughout the mission and don’t have to compete with your team for grenade pickups. The boom bringer and chem grenade are both highly impactful, but you have a lot less access to them and need to be more sparing with their use.
I’d say that the zealot’s stun and fire grenades are both more impactful than blackouts, but a lot less than chem grenade/boom bringer/shock mine. I think there should be some means of grenade regen for zealot that doesn’t happen as quickly as blackout or throwing knife regen. Either that or increase the base number of grenades significantly, but I’d prefer some kind of regen.
I mean it’s just plain silly that there is an option for Arbites to regen the powerful shock mines every 90 seconds, thus allowing them to be used MANY times per mission without taking any pickups, while the zealot has no option to regenerate his much less impactful grenades and is forced to compete with their teammates for grenade pickups. And that’s a competition the zealot should lose most of the time, given the state of his grenades.
Well they were definitely much worse when they were locked behind sub optimal pathing, though even back then I found it hard to turn down stun nades + revive speed curios to help keep PUGgers in the game. Hard to really make a fair judgement about them at all during the era of Zealot’s previous tree layout.
I think with the current tree layout the value of them vs knives is warped more by how your limited grenade options compete against how OTHER classes can use those grenade pickups more than by how their utility compares to knives. It’s definitely tempting to just take knives to avoid issues with team comps where you’re never gonna get a refill.
I mean I do agree in the current state of the game it would definitely be reasonable to at least have more of them for what they do. Personally I think grenade pickups as a whole kinda need a rework of some kind. Something that doesn’t encourage you to just feed all the pickups to a rocket launcher scum. I don’t know if it’s really very possible to balance the non regenerating blitz while the system works this way.
Chem Grenade is extremely overtuned, in my opinion as a mucker.
That reality is undeniable, and it needs to be addressed and hopefully pretty fast before everyone gets too used to crutching with the Chem Grenade.
I love my Blackout grenades, which, like the Veteran’s, are also free grenades so you don’t have to fight your team on pickups.
I just wish that muckers had more ways to counter walls of Carapace (Crusher’s) like the Veteran (I’m a former Veteran main before you come at me) who can just spam Krak’s for days.
