It always been a trend where zealot mains had stickier fingers than the others about stealing all the ammo in the map but now after the flamer nerf it became even more hurtfull to the rest of the squad as they use more ammo to do the same job than before and at the same time have less ammo at their disposal
did anyone else noticed or its just me?
Discuss
Imo ogryn are much worse.
Whipping out their shotgun or machinegun and firing at everything that moves.
Basically the same thing as flamethrower zealots, but much more common.
Flamer zealots seem to be relatively uncommon lately and the ones i do see, usually keep the flamer use down to hordes and do not usually create hot singles in their area.
Both of you are right…
I don’t know the right answer… maybe less ammo box and more ammo crate and an increased bonus of ammo for the veteran (but limited to himself and only himself)
If they keep the actual system (let’s be honest, this is what will happen), then at least they should up the ammo reserve of revolver, shotgun, reverse the change on flamer reserve, and lower the rate of fire of Ogryn’s gorg
I have met two times flamer players that made my runs, as a vet, nightmares… they have stolen everything, even when I had like 5% ammo and was red, they were taking ammos.
At one time I told them “Now I will launch stones. Thanks guys…”
Sounds like a team management thing.
Anyone who is trigger happy and has a low ammo count is going to grab ammo. Be mad at the right things…
We have even seen a zealot taking two times from the ammo crate cause he used his flamer 15 seconds…
The vet was so happy to continue the mission with only 20% ammos…
I use mine like Frank’s Red Hot. Blaze away and fan the flames. My Flamer experience has not changed due to the patch in any significant way. I have 10 less ammo… I still stagger everything and burn the countryside.
If I would use flamer… that’s exactly what I would do, and was doing prior this patch.
You use it for horde management, and let the ammo in priority for vets.
But, not everybody think to the team. And not everybody play with friends…
Precision: I have not the desire to use it again as it is yet too strong. Also I prefer my shotgun…
And don’t forget grenade launchers! Have to waste a nade on that single, lonely poxwalker.
To be fair, i rarely ever see this happen.
Machinegun/shotgun spam happen almost every time an ogryn is in the lobby.
And the ogryn that use these weapons, are basically just walking turrets. They do not do any melee action at the front line, or use their ult to knock down anything (in a useful way).
The explosive ogryns at least usually stick to the role of their class, and do not force psykers and veterans into melee combat to hold the frontline instead.
What I am trying to say is that the players with flamers who are not thinking of the team, and steal all the ammo would do with any weapon.
Pistols, Bolters, shotgun, Auto-pistols… and more are just complete ammo dumpers. The player is the problem. This is not a problem that requires a change to the flamer. It requires a change to the players. If you do not want to communicate or kick bad players, that is your choice. You have to live with the result of that choice. Don’t blame the weapon, blame the player.
Well I must disagree…
The restriction of ammos has been suggested by players that wanted to nerf the flamer. The idea was that if they get less ammos, they will use it less.
Well, it did not really succeed, like all weapons that are low on ammos.
As you said, we cannot correct players. This means that, obviously, each time FS will choose to move to restrict the ammo of a weapon, it impacts more the team than it impacts the player that uses this weapon.
There are several solution to correct this.
By example, we could rename aura capacity of the veteran and restrict the effects to only the veterans and increase the number of ammos that a veteran receive per elite killed. At the same time, the game would be balanced to have less ammos packs on the maps and a slight increase of ammo crate. Ammo crate permits all team members to resupply. So, they won’t be “stolen”.
This is just an example to what can be done to correct the problem. Cause, the main class impacted is the veteran. A veteran without ammos is an useless veteran…
So, the impact of such restriction are bad for players as it bring toxicity in our games. That’s why they need to rebalance the ammos of guns. They made several guns really short on ammos, and without any reasoning behind that, except the idea that restricting ammos is restricting the use of a weapon. But, that’s untrue.
I don’t say that the game should give us unlimited ammos, but there are several incoherent balance. Why the MG XII, that does greatest damages between all lasguns, has the largest amount of ammos? Why the MG Ia, that is the worst of all lasguns, has the lowest amount of ammos?
That’s a non sense. It should be MG Ia > MG IV > MG XII. If an energy weapon is making greatest damage and use same energy cell, then it should consumes more energy.
Same reasonning goes to bolter, shotgun and revolver. Ammos of bolter are the bigger of the 3. And Bolter has more ammo than the two others. In game we get this: Bolter > shotgun > revolver.
In reality, it should be, considering the size of ammos, revolver > shotgun > bolter.
They need to give us something coherent… and something that permits a veteran to play his class without getting restricted cause he run out of ammo or cause he cannot find ammo. Off course, I don’t speak here about a veteran that would waste all his ammos. And why veteran? cause this is the only class that is focused on ranged weapons. So, that’s less important that a zealot run out of ammo or an ogryn…
This is kinda why I wish ammo pick ups were less common and client particular like Ravaged Art was. Wanna rip through your ammo sure, but it doesn’t drag the experience. There is little sharing when you’re in a lobby with insert powerful weapon users. It would make me feel far less guilty actually touching grenade boxes as Ogryn for one.
I have so rarely had problems with ammo hogs on t4 and t5 difficulty that I see it as almost a complete non-issue. 95% of the people I play with always lets the people with the lowest ammo get some. It’s a team issue, and if there’s a problem you should probably mention it in game chat.
I do think something that would help is being able to see your team’s exact ammo like the numeric UI mod does. As a zealot, if I’m in “yellow” ammo range and a vet is in “white” ammo range, but I can actually see they have room for a small box of ammo I’ll pretty much always try and make sure they get it instead.
No, I said to correct players. Multiple times.
There are two.
1- Communicate with your team and deal with matters socially.
2- Continue to refuse to deal with it socially and suck it up.
Damnation is supposed to have healing and ammo issues. They did once upon a time, and now they are as abundant as the lower levels.
The idea of lowering ammo for the flamer is so it needs to reload more often. The reload is slow. So, I cannot simply wash the whole map with fire unless I am smart about my ammo consumption.
There is a chat and voice chat option for the game. You do not need to play with lifelong pals to say, "Hey, you need to go easy on ammo. IF someone is in the red, do not pick anything up.
You can politely inform them. This is a player issue, not a weapon specific issue.
Do not care what lore says. We have established that cannon is not the watch word. So, just stop that whole line of “reasoning”.
Again, put blame where it belongs instead of trying to make this some sort of plea to boost the flamer. It is a very very thin argument.
I think you’ve got the Kantrael lasguns in the wrong order.
IIRC, the IV is the low damage, high(er) ROF one, and does indeed have the most ammo (I can’t remember the exact stat ranges, but I think my best is 137/814, using two charges per shot, so ~475 shots).
The XII is indeed the high damage one. (And I think my highest capacity one is 108/636, using three charges per shot, so 248 shots. However, I think my standard one is 95/556 - ammo is its dump stat, but it’s great everywhere else and that’s still generally enough ammo, so fair enough).
The Ia, in the middle of the pack damage-wise, does indeed have less ammo than the XII, and still uses three charges per shot. I can’t actually even remember how many charges mine have, because I frankly never use them because of that.
I’ve squirrelled away a couple of ones with decent stats in case they should ever rebalance it, but ammo is enough of a consideration that while it remains in its current form, why would I take the less damaging Ia over the XII that does more damage and gets more shots?
But yes, as a general point, using ammo as a balancing mechanism doesn’t work well unless all the players are reasonable.
The concept of “Tragedy of the Commons” is extensively studied, regarding how any common resource simply breaks down if people can use it selfishly.
I still think it would be a good idea to make it to where ammo pick ups provide a proportional amount to everyone on the team, then surplus goes to the looter if others are capped. And, if the looter caps on their ammo during the pickup, excess is proportionally distributed to the rest of the team.
To be fair the ammo crate design is garbage. I learned very late that it even had charges because there is absolutely nothing to indicate that it does. The sensible way for it to work is to have an ammo percentage count that allows you to top up, or clearly mark how many charges it has.
The health stations do this. The ammo drop ships in DRG do this. DT ammo boxes do not, and I don’t blame anyone for not knowing this as it is not even slightly intuitive how the system works.
As for taking too much ammo… in my view the maps have way too much ammo as it is. Close combat is hardly ever even a thing even on Damnation except for the heavily armoured stuff. It’s a team management thing as someone already mentioned - not a class/weapon thing.
But yeah, I’m an Ogre with a stabber. The heavier of the ones they just released is great for ranged which is what is the most threatening to me, but of course I don’t fire it at the targets where the bullets just bounce off.
It fails… completely
Tbh, that’s the worst idea I have ever read about this.
Did it… guess what, they don’t care…
At final, the player punished cause they have implemented a stupid nerf is not the person that plays with the nerfed weapon but the players that are unlucky and get players that don’t care of the team.
Also, when you play out of team made on discord (and please don’t tell me that we have to do that, cause it would simply means that FS failed badly), you cannot avoid such behavior.
But to be fair, this is rare to meet such players. On damnation you find more people that play the team. But when you meet such person, your game becomes a nightmare, unless you took an MG IV / MG XII.
Voice… I will avoid… you can voice me as you want, except if it is one word, when someone decide to say something long… well he could speak at my grand mother, it would be the same. With the sounds of the combats, my son in the close room, and usually the TV and adding the fact english is not my native language… Well, you can tell me what you want…
Chat… ok… tried. But starting a forum thread in the game will lead to one thing… our death.
Then people should stop wanting to respect the “lore”. Cause when we speak at balancing the weapons that are too strong, what you read is that it is against the lore…
So, or we respect the lore, and ammunitions have to be balanced according to that, or we don’t have to respect every word of the lore, and then we can have 40k weapons but with a balance between all of them.
Tbh, I don’t care of the lore…
But, actually there’s too few ammo for shotgun and revolver. These two weapons need a little more ammos. From a balancing point, they should increase the ammos of several weapons (revolver, shotguns, infantry autogun) and maybe reduces the reserve of several (starting with MG XII)
I put blame where it belongs… on the guys that proposed something that could not work and on FS that has think that was a good idea.
No they are not. You clearly see the difference between difficulty levels.
The idea behind lowering the ammo reserve of the flamer is just that the player that use this weapon has to loot more ammos. The idea to reduce the amount of “ammos” in the “clip” (= fuel canister) has the purpose you say. But not lowering the ammos reserve.
As I said, I am fine with the clip size…
Also, maybe you did not try the flamer… the reload is pretty fast.
Ok let’s close this by… we cannot agree. I don’t want to have a debate on players in the game… What I say is that the nerf of flamer reserve should be reversed and, as I said several times, I don’t mind that the clip size of the flamer stays the same as post patch.
You’re right… I use so much the pew pew, that I made a confusion 
Thanks for correcting me.
Yes… but it should not be a difficulty for players of damnation difficulty.
God forbid in a 40k game the lasgun performs as a lasgun lmao.
They pretty much nailed it btw. High ammo, precise, single fire, more damage than a standard projectile weapon, not so good against armor, and useless against heavy armor. The sound design and visual elements are also superb.
What is to discuss? This will be never fixed in public games.
The only solution I could think of is a full redesign of the ammo system to make it more like Back4Blood, where you have different ammo types. This way you would “compete” for ammo drops with randoms which share your weapon type.
Maybe even with rarity levels: you are more likely to find small arms ammo than plasma/flamer etc. This way those weapons could be as OP as you want, but you will have to decide if its worth wasting your ammo on a specific encounter.