Because it’s a straight copy of V2 Saltz zealot. He isn’t a “pure” melee class because he can equip gun, sure, but his
mostly buffs melee.
I think you either misunderstood my claim or exeggerated it too hard.
It´s not about a comparison to slayer, it´s about the 4 classes we´ve currently available and we just need to look at the feats to see that Zealot is the melee-class of the 4. I mean… you´ve even a gapcloser, grenades that help to close the gap, the highest mobility to close those gaps and are able to get more toughness back in melee-mode.
Hmm… hard to judge about it seriously. I do think Vet is stronger in its core. What makes Zealot outstanding is the undying passive with the self-heal, and if you want sliding / dodgeslide.
I still think the self-heal feat is a nice feature especially for newcomers to deal or get better used to circumstances etc… but i also still believe it needs some tweaks or better restrictions like its own cooldown and not just the 2 minutes as the passive has. It´s too strong once you got used to the class.
Also i don´t think the skill-floor is that high. It´s just decision-making about going in and out. And sadly the most encounters are trivialized by rangeweapons anyway, so Zealot can´t even really shine in its core unless you force it.
I asked for a nerf / fix for dodge-slide atleast.
I´m not running it per se, i just prefer faster gameplay in general in any games. (Like playing assassin-classes etc…)
But i don´t really see the issue in movement in this game (besides knife maybe). We´ve a lot of circumstances, range that makes encounters easier, melee enemies that are not really a threat etc… And those things are the reason why
a) movement doesn´t really shine
b) movement restrictions are no real drawback on weapons
I mean we had this in V2 aswell. Either fast and less hard hitting weapons, unless we talk about the heavy attacks from daggers, or we had slower hard hitting weapons with huge stagger.
Such differences are what keeps the gameplay interesting and getting used to them is some form of skill-ceiling. Also you offer everything for everyone, it just needs to be balanced out in its relation of damage - surviveability - versatility.
And you´ll probably never know it besides my claims like “I want atleast damnation on a difficulty-level of V2´s cata.”
The reason is simple… i do have my preferences, but i just look at the game in general and try to keep in mind the circumstances of it, the chances to get something done, the worth of the effort put into it by FS and ofc the wishes of different kind of players.
That´s why… for example… i´ve said at the beginning that the armory is not bad in its core. It helps a more casual playerbase to progress since it doesn´t matter if you win or lose. (Meanwhile i´m a player that would get highly rewarded if it would be different…)
It´s just not everything black and white, it´s grey. And we can only make the game a better place for everyone if we keep a lot stuff as possible in mind and work with what is given as a base. So yes, it might turn out that i claim different things not matching well together. It´s just finding a better and better solution with each new interesting claim, argument, idea, whatever… EDIT: And testing ofc… something a lot seem to miss when they talk about balance and stuff. It´s important to get used to stuff before poeple judge about it.
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I played a lot of Zealot in V2. While many of its abilities are copies, it feels very different mainly due to the game being very different.
The martyrdom stack is a general damage boost. And usually, you can stay on 1-2 stacks with relative safety (depending on how much you need for breakpoints). While I find Rising Conviction basically mandatory, Zealot has both a Close-range talent for ranged weapons and the ult that affects ranged weapons.
It’s a hard disagree for me on this one.
It’s also a hard disagreement for me.
Mobile weapons are way easier to engage with. If we are only talking about movement speed, the longer slides give a longer invulnerability window, it’s pretty noticeable. With non-mobile weapons, engaging shooters is pretty rough even at mid-distance (although suppression can help), and Zealot can just charge of course.
Good to hear, I support you on this one.
I don’t know what makes the ogryn less melee than the zealot. It even has more melee-oriented talents. I think Ogryn is supported/CC-focused instead of survival/mobility, but just looking at the passives and the skill tree it doesn’t seem any less melee. I can add to that that with PS nerfed, psyker has the best melee weapons with Illisi and a bunch of other top-notch Class-only melee options (Deimos, DS…) with a big chunk of melee damage too.
I don’t think I exaggerated your claim. I think it’s just super wrong to call Zealot “the melee class”.
Yeah, I feel like you are intentionally masking your… Intentions.
Do you have at least an argument for not making a new difficulty instead of nerfing half the armory? I have plenty against Nerf everything until 5 becomes hard enough…
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I thought i could just watch from time to time and enjoy the show.
But i can’t.
If this would be a discussion face to face, some people would have a hard time to cover their
faces while they tell straight up lies or fabricate stories about how they experienced the PS
pre patch and now.
Saying the PS was to strong and had to be changed, while acting as if that statement would come from someone who actively plays the Veteran Class, is one thing too many here do.
Cut the cow dung!
That’s a straight up lie.
You know it.
I know it.
We all know it.
A Veteran PLAYER that dislikes the PS just simply picks something else. But that was never the problem. People dislike the PS while OTHERS wield it. THAT is the point.
The root of all the discussions around the PS always came from people that HATED to see Veterans wield the Power Sword. No one uses a weapon on his favorite class and then goes ''oh boy, i do hope the devs nerf this thing because i can not stand how strong it is.
The picture is clear. Veteran is a range class. Its range weapons are to strong. Its class specific melee is to strong. Its Ult is to strong. That’s the things you get to read all the time.
Coming from people who mainly play a class that they them self keep in a constant state of changing arguments, depending on what they argument for or against at that time.
One time they declare it to be THE MELEE CLASS.
Next time it is ONLY a melee class.
Then it is a WEAK class that can not deal with shooters.
Next they praise it for its mobility and how good it feels to get to that shooters and smash them.
And the best argument of all times keeps to be, that Veteran with Power Sword would steal the Zealots JOBS.
Then maybe you did your job wrong, if a class that is played by people who enjoy shooting stuff, had to run over to you and swing a melee weapon.
Problem is, that this game forces every class into melee from time to time. More so if you have range weapons with you, where you can not afford to shoot poxwalkers with, like high dmg low ammo weapons.
So just stop arguing, that the Zealot and only the Zealot should shine in melee. The Psyker with its Illisi Mk V blaze Force Sword is levels above the Horde clear potential of the pre nerf Power Sword.
It does not even has to be powered up to clear them with ease. And that thing gets infinite dodges.
And no one talks about it. Or maybe this is the next point on the nerf call agenda, who knows.
There are Weapons in this game, that are iconic to this franchise. Power, Chain and energy weapons are the flagship items when it comes to 40K. And when you have to read, that someone wants these things to be down on the same power level like a shovel or a knife. Well that’s the moment when you hear your inner Terminator say ‘‘Brother bring the flamer. The heavy FLAMER!’’
But please you all, go on tell us how overpowered the Power sword is compared to a normal sword.
And we all gonna ignore that your Ultimate that is meant to buff melee combat still buffs range fire too. But that little bug is too good right? And it would be uncool to suddenly fix it, because now everyone enjoyed it for so long already, right? Would be a shame when they fix it now. You could not even complain about it then, because you argued against that kind of argument when it came to the PS nerf.
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Sure, not like youtube media went even further than 24 hours news cycle and work by hyperbole, BS titles, weird pseudo fluorescent green and pink titles and plain BS to appeal to a larger audience.
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Darktide and Vermintide are one of those games where if you needed a specific ting to carry you, youre just bad and relied on a crutch. People freak out over nerfs all the damn time. Just ignore them and move on.
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Wants game to do well
Constantly showing everyone how the game is dying
Be honest, this isnt about the games performance but this weird innate want to be “right”. People who always say and act like this always have an ego because they always want to act like “well, if the devs had just listened to me the game wouldve been fine!” If you like the game, then play the game. If you dont like it, play something else. Why do you feel the need to go on forums and tell everyone the game is dying in some veiled attempt to act like you want to “help” the game when trends show that doing stuff like this usually leads to a downward spiral?
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I don’t particularly want to weigh in on this discussion but I will point out factual inaccuracy. Martyrdom is 100% purely melee damage bonus. Not sure where you got the impression otherwise but the only way Zealot gets ranged bonus damage is the EE feat, however it competes with rising conviction so you have to give up your most reliable melee boost to get this (you shouldn’t do this).
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Be honest, this isnt about the games performance but this weird innate want to be “right”. People who always say and act like this always have an ego because they always want to act like “well, if the devs had just listened to me the game wouldve been fine!”
Showing an image on the average/peak player counts is demonstrates on how the game is dying? That has very little to do what I just said. But I will elaborate on what I meant in my previous post.
The main reason why the game is dying in the first place is the heavy RNG system and the limitations that came with it. Yes the Vermintide series had the same amount of RNG, but it was still fully customizable to the weaponry to what YOU wanted. A lot of players left after seeing this limintation along with not having the ability to fully customize their weapons once the Shrine of the Omnissiah was “completed” for the players to use. This along with the many technical issues is why people left this game when they did.
To Fatshark’s credit, not only did they admit that they were at fault for such a bad release of the game, but they are actively working on patches to get the game into a more stable build and included some content to play the game. Some of which I’ve actually enjoyed. But doing buffs/nerfs to areas that isn’t needed is seen as an unnecessary patch update. It’s a PvE game, not a PvP. It just seems like the main issues that the community has been yelling about for the past 4 months has either gone unnoticed or barely touched upon.
If you like the game, then play the game. If you dont like it, play something else. Why do you feel the need to go on forums and tell everyone the game is dying in some veiled attempt to act like you want to “help” the game when trends show that doing stuff like this usually leads to a downward spiral?
Because admitting that there is a problem that everyone can clearly see is the first step on solving the issue at hand. Hence why within these forums you see people expressing what they currently feel about the game in which they love.
V2 players don’t want to see the same pitfalls in which that game had in the past and new players are wondering why pieces within the game are either restricted or not even in the game already. We are making these posts within this forum in order to either point new issues that we are seeing or current existing issues that are being repeated.
We want the developers to understand that this game has potential on being great, not to be ignored solely because they think they resolved the issue by the number of forum posts that has the same title that outlines the problem.
->“Enjoy the playerbase shrinking”
→ Shows picture documenting the playerbase gaining momentum
Hilarious stuff
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You are right. I was fairly convinced it was giving a ranged damage boost before too. Was it bugged or something?
Not impossible but if so I’ve never heard about that happening. It’s part of why honour the martyr is one of the most deady dead feats in the game. Less bonus than rising conviction for a way worse condition 
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Literally nobody ever brings up player counts for any other reason. They only mention it or bring it up in an attempt to prove something. Lets stop pretending its anything else.
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Cause zealot in DT is poorly done, it’s the same ideas: dash, cheat death once in a while, the less hp you have the stronger you are. But Martyrdom is just weak bonus for risky low hp playstyle. Well and range enemies make the difference also, true.
Only that bugged(feature?) part about armor type. Guaranteed crit from CTW is only for melee hits.
2 his iconic passives - Martyrdom and Swift Exorcism provides melee bonus.
And if i’m correct how things work - 5 of his feats are melee bonuses, 3 - both for melee and range (mostly attack speed), and just 1 feat is range damage buff.
Don’t let facts get in the way of a good story. Which frankly is my personal take away from the whole “OMG they nerfed X, I quit” drama. Also “influencers” losing their marbles…because apparently a secret society of forum “losers and weirdos” (their words not mine) put pressure on Fatshark to introduce balance changes 
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I´m fine with that. Since Ogryn and Psyker got overbuffed, it´s actually hard to say which is the strongest tbh.
Vet has just the best basestats, and if you´re somewhat used to melee, the 200 toughness are way more worth than other stuff. Not to mention that you make a complete arsenal super strong and handle pretty much any range weapon without cons.
That´s why i think it´s still outstanding and Vets kit is the real issue why its gonna be hard to balance range weapons in general.
My statment was more about the melee combat itself. (Dogde window, stamina, attack speed etc…). especially since it´s often an argument like “but PS has no defense, Vet has weak mobility” etc… :
Ofc a Zealot or Ogryn will have an easier life to push etc… and since Vet has the least options to close gaps, it might be somewhat important to them. But here we´re still talking about the class doing the best job on range.
As you´ve said yourself, it´s more support / CC tank. Of course Ogryn relies on melee aswell in some feats and yes… i would call both as “the frontline” at any time. It´s just that Zealot have way more what i expect from a class, which is melee-based in its core. Meanwhile Ogryns kit just plays a lot about heavy attacks only and ofc he´s the big man which huge support-abilities.
Psykers buffs are still exeggerated and so are the Forceswords. Illisi needs definately a nerf as warp unleashed needs to be replaced. But that´s another topic…
It´s up to you.
No. My core-intention has always been to bring this game in a successful state for the most players possible. No matter if we talk about casuals, elitits or just something inbetween. And if i have to cut my own expectations or poeple are mad about me, then that´s a price i can live with.
As i´ve said after release… if players want this game to succeed, they should calm down and even show some humanity, changes take time. Poeple don´t do their favorite game, they want to fall in love with for another thousand hours, a favor with all the shitstorm that happened and happens yet caused by some nerfs.
Reasons can and will be justified, but their other ways than constant moaning, insulting and yes, crying like a 4 years old…
I´m sure everyone wants the game to become better. But it just doesn´t work if you only want it “your way” and start to sheet on the table if thats not happening.
Said them multiple times…
-
It´ll take longer to create a new difficulty and there are not many possibilities to actually keep it somewhat challenged without masses of enemies or heavy bulletsponging. And even this will be no real challenge if weapons still have huge cleave / aoe effects and endless stagger. Going the more “deadly route” is a no-go aswell, because it´s just bad game-design if a random coinflip-hit decides about win or loss.
So if anything… a new difficulty will push players into heavy meta-weapons even more. -
It´ll split the playerbase even more. But since we´ve already high and low int, they just need to be always available. Said this multiple times, that we need atleast 3 maps of each difficulty, one with low, one normal and one with high it. Also books should be always available on the normal ones.
This will automatically serve different kind of players and even if some are not able to beat damnation thanks to enemy- and weapon-changes, they still have heresy (high int) to have fun and damnation low int to get used to the new ruleset.
Not to mention that Sedition is pointless imo. While speddrunning to get some weeklies done in time, you´ll never meet a low-level there. Just scale the difficulties better, so even the gap between malice and heresy might last in a better spot.
It´s not about nerfing weapons into nowhere and getting a sick challenge out of it. It´s about not trivializing enemies and encounters. The core-reason why flamer needed and perhaps still needs nerfs is not that it´s able to do its job in waveclear perfectly. It´s that this weapon is a free “out of jail” card. Poeple can missplay hard, get surrounded by dozens of enemies and then a flamer appears… it´s too forgivable and makes encounters pretty much a no-brainer unless we talk about snipers.
I´ve listed some changes i would like to see than just nerfing weapons. And i´m still a fan of rebalance all of them in basestats with utility-blessings instead of e.g. what happened to autopistol. On top bring melee enemies in a better state with stagger resistence etc and all will be fine.
We´ve the base here. It´s just obvious to me that FS is set under pressure thanks to all the bad reviews. So instead of taking time and tweaking this base to keep stuff better balanced, they just throw some bandaids around to cater the players.
But players will get better over time… some faster, some slower… and only a handful will stuck on malice or so. But i´m sure at some point everyone will mention, that the current weapon-design is just wrong. I mean, there is a reason so many hunt for Powercycler, Slaughterer or Pinning Fire.
We just need less stats to care about, more consitency and give the players the freedom to tweak their builds. And suddenly we´ll have a better balanced game with more freedom where players can grow at their personal preferences.
(And yes, too many hunt for stats in general. I personally don´t believe that anyone is getting better while relying on them. I do know why that´s happening and a bunch will never care. But it´s also a thing that poeple will have automatically more fun and suddenly everything is viable once they got somewhat better.)
Sorry but i haven´t read everything else but this.
Dunno which crusade you started but it´s still nonsense. You even misunderstood my claim above, which was nothing but a comparison between Vet and Zealot and that some arguments like “But Vet is weaker than others in melee.” shouldn´t be taken into account when we talk about balancing since the class is obviously range-orientated.
The same would count for Zealot if you´re like “But Zealot is weaker on range in stats, so it needs the best range weapon.”… just NO.
You also still don´t get that dozens of poeple saw the PS and flamer issue. Vet mains, Zealot mains, hell even Psyker and Ogryn mains.
I personally play every class and mostly Psyker. Yet is still believe the Psykerbuffs are too strong and that the Illisi-FS, which is like a PS, needs a nerf.
So what? And i´m not alone with this. Balance is more important than face-rolling a game that shines only in its gameplay.
But hey, it´s the last time i´ll engage on this. Sometimes you might have points i would take into account, but mostly you just don´t understand how things going, you insistence on lore for reasons that are not healthy for the game and once someone is showing you the difference, you´re suddenly silent until the next time some similar topic arrives.
Really think whatever you want. Continue your crusade as much as you want. But i can promise you that you´re actually the one who seems to hate those “Zealot-mains” (maybe because the flamer-guy takes all your kills?) and that you seem to rely so heavily on broken weapons to deal with higher difficulties, it´s insane. Get better and you´ll have fun with any weapon, y know?
You are honestly so consistently full of bad takes that its staggering. You just keep moving goalposts and backpedal like a teenage boy that just got shoved into the girls locker room.
You say you are trying to make the game better for everyone, but your posts reeks of “change the game so other players have to play like i want them to play”, so stop acting like this is some benevolent effort on your part when its pretty clear its purely self serving.
Heck, im not even sure you yourself know what you want, but its evidently not gonna stop you from patting yourself on the back so hard that its left a permanent imprint on your spine.
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Knew you wouldn’t abandon us brother 
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Really think whatevery you want from me.
There are dozens of different opinions and issues flying around. Personal ones and also general ones.
A middleway is the best option and balance is highly needed in games in general. If you can´t see that it´s needed or that everyone have to cut tweak their own expectations a bit to make this game better, then i really don´t know what to tell you.
And no, i´m not feeling great arguing with some poeple here who don´t see anything else but their own and are like “buff pls”, or that the game is still not in a state it should´ve been already with all the experience FS has from previous games. Not to mention different wasted potentials like e.g. in map-design.