Your Thoughts on Crit vs Breakpoints

Please share your thoughts/experiences regarding stacking power vs +x% vs disregarding it for universally applicable DPS properties, ie. attack speed/crit chance/crit power on melee, crit power on ranged, attack speed/crit power on charm.

My personal philosophy regarding breakpoints achieved through power +x% stacking is that the value of such an approach is purely academic in nature. First, getting your value out of it assumes that damage is being dealt in a vacuum, with you being the only damage source, which is certainly almost never the case. Second, there’s no “perfect” or “universal” breakpoint loadout, ie. you’re increasing your damage vs certain enemies while doing nothing to affect your performance vs others, further minimizing the value of these breakpoints since enemy are almost always mixed. Power + vs Group A effectively means Power - vs Group B when you consider you’re sacrificing a universally property for it. Lastly, it doesn’t synergize as well with most talents or other more traditional DPS properties.

I consider stacking general DPS traits to be vastly superior in the dynamic battlefield environment. They’re applied universally to all enemies, give you more practical/tangible/effective results when your crits shatter breakpoints (which they can/will do frequently, ensuring you instagib things), and your output vs enemies with large health pools (bosses, lords, and CW) is dramatically increased relative to power stacking.

On four out of five characters’ melee weapons, I consider Attack Speed + Crit Chance to be basically mandatory with either Swift Slaying or Off Balance being the mandatory trait. On ranged weapons, I always prefer Crit Chance + Crit Power with Hunter, Scrounger (on characters who need help with ammo), or (on Sienna) Heat Sink. On charm, I prefer Attack Speed + Crit Power, except on Sienna where I prefer either Crit Power and Power vs chaos or monsters (w/e you feel like gibbing better, CW or bosses).

The more you start factoring in other characters’ contribution, especially when considering their buffs/debuffs and w/e buffs/debuffs you’re applying, synergizing to max out your attack speed, crit chance, and crit power really starts to ramp up your output against enemies where it really matters. Also, in 30 years, I can’t think of a game where crit doesn’t pretty much always come out on top in terms of value compared to raw damage buffs.

2 Likes

I don’t have the links to the data, but I’ve heard tell of diminishing returns on critpower - as in critpower is on a curve that flattens out dramatically the higher you get.

The numbers aren’t obvious in the game though (nothing really is) so I can’t say for sure.

1 Like

I believe some of that was addressed in a recent patch (ie. it plateauing at a static value) but I still think it had/has better value overall in a dynamic environment.

1 Like

Yes I wasn’t saying you were wrong, just that it is so hard to know ‘for sure’ in this game regarding the stats and utility of almost anything :slight_smile: Even swift slaying doesn’t work on everything.

Aside from certain careers/weapons that have vastly improved utility by reaching breakpoints against certain things (SV for instance), you might very well be correct.

1 Like

Yeah, that’s a good point. Man, I do love Swift Slaying but I’m convinced Off Balance is just easily the best trait in the entire game… it’s just not nearly as fun Q_Q. A 50% damage received buff is just massive, especially considering we will pretty much always proc it against all of the things it really helps with (CW, bosses, and lords).

1 Like

Oh for sure, i don’t use it nearly enough, because it’s not ‘as fun’. On the careers I don’t use swift slaying on, i tend to run CDR because their ult is so annoyingly long.

1 Like

I haven’t used that much yet cuz I haven’t been on IB a lot since I hit 600 but I’ve been meaning to try it. Does it make a big difference? I use 2H hammer so I feel like it’d be pretty noticeable when swatting through a horde. That said, my playstyle is very pistol heavy so I’m a bit torn.

I haven’t done IB much, but it helps with for instance Merc/huntsman ult quite a bit. You’ll get it up way more often, and don’t feel like you’re holding onto the ult for the entire match while waiting for a boss or the crutch moment where it’s really needed. I hate playing when I feel like I can’t ult because maybe there’s a boss or a patrol just around the corner.

1 Like

I mostly agree with you points here. Most breakpoints indeed are mostly number-crunching; I don’t particularly care whether I cleave through five or six rats, and whether the third one gets killed on one or two hits. There are some situations when certain breakpoints are important, but these always are a question of a specific weapon against a specific enemy. One can be noted in my answer to the 1-h Axe thread.

That said, I usually do keep at least some Power vs. Chaos on my stuff, if only to balance out the feel of combat between the different hordes. Power vs. Monsters is nice, but in no way essential. Others are more situational, and still mostly about the feel. Power vs. Berserkers, though, I never pick, that one’s just too rarely useful.

Nearly all of the other Properties and Traits are dependent on my loadout. While Movement Speed, Attack Speed and Crit Chance are always acceptable, and usually very good, I do like Block cost reduction and (very occasionally) Stamina or Push/Block angle on some weapons too. Crit power I find too weak unless I’m playing a crit build.

Traits have similar variance for me, but they have less middle ground. Swift Slaying is one I can use on most weapons, but there are a few (e. g. 2-H Hammer, which depends more on attack rhythm than raw speed) where I certainly don’t want it. Off Balance is usually useful too. On Daggers at least, Parry shines, but takes practice to utilize well. Opportunist might be good, but timing stuff is hard enough against hordes already. Hm, I have a feeling I’m forgetting one or two Melee traits here… Although that too is telling.

On ranged weapons, my thoughts on Properties are pretty much the same. Some Power vs. might find more use here (Armored comes to mind) but not by much. Traits I find even more divisive. Most of the time, Scrounger is indeed the best, but on some weapons I would prefer Conservative Shooter. Just about the only one I would likely prefer anything else is on Waystalker or some Ranger builds. Haven’t had the time or chance to fool around with their weapons enough to figure things out yet. Sienna and the Drakefires are probably the best with one of the Heat traits, but I have run a flamethrower (not sure if Sienna or IB) with “extra damage vs. same armor class” (Hunter, I think) successfully enough.

In specific group builds the rest of the Traits might find their place too, but those are another topic entirely.

And slightly aside, the jewellery Traits (and at least one Property) are sorely in need of tweaking.

1 Like

Agreed. I feel vs Chaos is optimal to offset their general beefiness compared to Skaven. I won’t go out of my way to take it but it’s my go-to on Sienna’s charm, since I don’t care about her attack speed whatsoever.

Is Push/Block angle working properly? I never take it because I always seem to push everything point blank in my FoV and I always seem to have 360 degrees of blockage w/o it. Block cost reduction is extremely potent though. I only use Sienna’s melee to panic block or push my way out of a bad situation if it’s not safe to just blast my way out, so i go with block cost reduction and extra stamina on her melee weapon and block cost reduction and health on her necklace. It makes for a ridiculous amount of tankiness, regardless of what’s hitting you.

Definitely, if even just the values. I mentioned it somewhere else but the AoE dmg taken -10% is an absolute joke. V1 has gas dmg -60% and rat gun dmg -80% and also significantly less lethal gas rats. At minimum, they need to take a close look at balancing the dmg reduction traits.

I’m not sure what exactly it does for Push, but for Blocking, attacks outside the cone cost double Stamina to block. So not that useful on Shield weapons, but on some others gives a bit more strength to defense. I’m also not sure how exactly the added angle is calculated, as it’s presented as percentage, but some weapons have an effective 0-degree angle. To be honest, though, I’ve used it less as I’ve gotten better, but I still would appreciate it on, say, IB, when not using a shield.

1 Like

agreed, but everyone flips out if I say that.

1 Like

The main problem with crit power, is that crit is usually good enough by itself to kill your target. So any damage increase is wasted.
But even if you face a bigger foe, the damage bonus isn’t that great. Your crit chance should be about 15%. 15% times 20% bonus damage equals to 3% dps increase fox x2 crit multiplier and 6% for x3 crit modifier.
So crit power should be used only by classes with increased crit chance, with decent crit multiplier and only to help deal with big targets.

I am not sure if +power helps penetrate more targets. If yes, than crit power might be a little bit more useful, but still not worth using it on characters with low crit. On the other hand that would mean it’s super good for BH.

As for breakpoints, they are important for some of the slower weapons, since for them 2 hits and 1 hits - is a very big difference. Overall I think they do not matter as much as people generally think.

1 Like

I think I’ve come around to the idea of power vs stacking on Kruber, since his ranged weapons are slower so more reliable dmg seems important. I don’t play him much now though.

You make good points and I think now that there’s a case for some classes to have power vs on ranged/charm. I think any class with an offensive ult should go crit power though. It makes big difference, for example, on Burning Head especially where more damage directly translates to more targets hit and more kills.

I can see power vs having a place for slow reload weapons to ensure specials go down in one hit.

2 Likes

Crit chance + attack speed is good for just a brain dead dps boost or if you are trying to proc crits for a reason (SS/resourceful/instakill on headshot crit/etc). Power vs x allows you to customise a much higher dps boost against specific types of enemies you don’t like by a massive amount (+32% for melee, +44% for ranged), which is much higher than the average dps increase of crits. Stacking raw power from talents allows you to cleave/stagger/damage more giving you a much larger increase in dps vs hordes than what you would think, and it stacks multiplicatively with power vs x, allowing you to do hit some ridiculous damage boosts.

The reason why crit builds are generally better in most games is that you can stack crit chances up to 50% or more and your crit damage to be many multiples of your normal damage. Meanwhile in vermintide 2 crit chances usually are in the 15-20% range and crit damage usually isn’t over 2x damage. This means that you get a lot less out of crits than in other games.

But it’s only a breakpoint in a vacuum and only against some of the field. Once you factor in that multiple people are hitting the same thing at the same time, and that is a dynamic situation with constantly changing variables, it’s different. The 1-shot special loadout for handgun seems ok but most everything else has enough firepower by virtue of its attack speed or shorter range that you know whatever you’re shooting is going down in a split second regardless.

1 Like

Crit power sucks for every class that isn’t bounty hunter. When you take the time to think about how high your crit % is, which is very hard to conclusively state since Rotund Fishy is allergic to even the idea of any transparency at all, it is such a miniscule dps boost it’s almost comical. Your crit chance % likely won’t go past 20-25% if you get 5% on your weapon, charm, and trinket. Again, bounty hunter is the exception to this, and can expect to crit 1/4 of a horde every 10 seconds if using volley bow.

Crits are also almost completely out of your control. They’re rng by nature, so relying on them is a very bad idea. So let’s assume you get 5% crit on your weapon, charm, and trinket. Most classes have a 5% crit talent as well. Most weapons, according to what I’ve been able to find online, have a 5% base crit chance, some are 10% but an overwhelming majority are still 5%. Outside of very specific talents/passive, such as the witch hunter captain’s +8% crit chance on a taggable enemies death or Huntsman’a passive aura, that 20-25% is the absolute max obtainable for most classes. And that assumes you can roll +5%Crit chance with any other half decent property in not just 1 or even 2 slots, but 3.

So, 20-25% crit chance is as high as you can realistically expect. That means 1 out of every 5 hits SHOULD crit , but it’s still not guaranteed. On weapons, meleeor ranged, the same slots that can roll crit chance can also roll crit power, which caps at 20% per item. Assuming you get a flawless roll on both your ranged/melee and charm, or possibly all 3, you’re looking at a cap of +40% crit power for most classes. Some can invest another talent point and boost that up to 60-65%ish i think. I know there used to be an issue with the way crit damage was calculated that made Crit power entirely worthless, but as far as I know they changed the formula to fix that. The formula still isn’t 1:1 though, so your +40% crit power isn’t making your crits do 40% more damage. After taking armor reduction, weapon crit multipliers, and a whole host of other things, including the way Vermintide 2 determines damage, it comes out to be significantly less. I can’t claim to know the actual formulas used, but I’ve read posts made by folks much more knowledgeable on V2 damage calculations than I will ever be, and they all came to the same conclusion, given that crits are random, the damage formula used by v2, and the fact both your crit chance and crit power are both on the same slots so good luck getting that roll on both your weapon(s), unless you’re using one of the few classes with talents to further boost either or both, you’re looking at a best case scenario along the lines of every 5th hit or so being boosted by not quite 40% power depending on what you’re critting.

That makes 40% crit power, assuming rng decides to work in your favor perfectly, a, roughly 8% overall dps bump. Now the inevitable question, what are you critting that isn’t dying in 1 hit and would that extra damage even do anything to help? Most things you would want to be able to 1shot crit, without the proper +damage vs, are simply not possible to 1shot crit using crit power instead of damage vs. Chaos warriors and hookrats will laugh in skaven at you. Do you really need +40% crit power to 1 shot zombies or slave rats though? It’s not like you can kill them twice or make them extra dead. Unless you have ungodly luck you will not be critting every 5 hits either, so that already underwhelming 16% theoretical dps boost that you used 5 item properties, or more if doing both ranged and melee, and potentially a talent point or two to get turns out to be closer to like 12% in practice. Let’s even take talents out of the picture. Somehow you hit 25% crit chance without wasting a single talent point, which is not possible to the best of my knowledge but let’s say it is.

5 item properties for something in the neighbourhood of a 12-16% dps boost, (
which assumes none of your crits were “wasted” either, ie the thing you critted would have died anyway from your next hit even if it wasn’t a crit,) is a HORRIBLE deal. For those 5 properties you could have gotten +5% Crit chance/+10% damage vs chaos/+5% atk speed on your melee weapon, +10% vs chaos/armored/infantry/+5% attack speed on your ranged and charm, and hopefully not had to do anything with your trinket since +5%Crit chance/+33% curse resistance was and still is probably best in slot.

Do you know what the game classifies as infantry? It’s literally every non boss, non armored, non berserker enemy there is. All of them, both chaos and skaven. Infantry account for like 90% of all enemies (that’s just not the actual %, I haven’t the faintest idea what real % of enemies you face are infantry, but it gets the point across that infantry account for an overwhelming majority of all enemies on any given map on any difficulty.) Anything that isn’t a boss, a hookrat, or infantry is armored, which is probably equally as worthwhile as +power vs chaos since it accounts for Chaos warriors, storm vermin, mailers, and the weird specials like the gunner, who for whatever reason is wearing armor. If you give up crit power and are willing to sacrafice 5% Crit chance for a flat +10% power vs the world then +power vs infantry and armored is probably the best roll you could ask for on a charm.

+Power vs chaos is also amazing since the list of weapons that cannot 1 shot a chaos zombie on legend without +power vs is huge, and being able to easily and safely deal with chaos hordes, that probably contain a surprise berserker or 12 as well as a handful of chaos warriors who are shockingly light on their feet, is worth a slot or two on your gear somewhere. Infantry and armored, imo, are slightly better as they are not useless against 1/2 the enemies you face. Now, if you truly don’t care about hitting breakpoints, by sacrificing 5% crit chance on just your charm you’ve made yourself +10% more powerful vs all the things. For melee you can ditch crit power for +5% attack speed, another property that is useful at all times and in all situations, or further invest in +power vs chaos. Personally, i find most classes get more out of swift slaying and +5% attack speed than +power vs chaos since that means you’ll be hitting more enemies in hordes and out and therefore critting more often causing more frequent procs of swift slaying etc etc, it snowballs really well is the point. Ranged is harder to generalize. It depends entirely on your role in the team and your weapon, but any +power vs other than skaven or berserkers will boost your damage significantly more than +Crit power would have.

You can also tweak things from there as needed. Playing slayer a ton? Grab a +10% power vs chaos/armored charm, consider dropping the attack speed on dual axes for +power vs chaos, and then massacre them almost instantaneously even on legend. Rocking a spear handmaiden focusing on wave clear/horde control? Ditch the attack speed for probably +2stamina on melee and grab a +power vs infantry/chaos charm then push stab nonstop across the entire map. You get the idea. Even if you don’t care about breakpoints ditching +Crit power for power vs will make your life, not to mention your teams lives, much, much easier. You don’t need to completely min-max all your setups. Just knowing what to shoot for and what sounds way better than it actually is, on even a basic level, is important for all legend players.

Now for the exceptions! Obviously bounty hunter is a special case. His passive means you crit every 10 seconds and after every single individual melee kill. That alone would make crit power exponentially better on him than probably any other class. That’s before realizing his volley crossbow will crit whatever is hit by the 3 arrow salvo, meaning, before even considering what that crit means for his ranged cleave ie piercing, you’re already potentially getting 3x as many crits from the 3 separate projectiles. In a horde it’ll go through stupid numbers of enemies. Crit power on bounty hunter is, at bare minimum 3x more powerful than on any other class while simultaniously removing one of the biggest downsides of running Crit power focused setup, the fickle whims of RNG since his crits are 100% guarenteed every 10 seconds or on demand via melee kills.

I also think shade is an exception as the first hit during infiltrate is a guarenteed critical and shade has actually viable dual wield weapons like the dual swords. And yes, both swords will crit if you do a charged attack during infiltrate. Resourceful combatant is also super strong on shade for the same reasons. If you run the glaive instead of dual swords, dual daggers, or sword and dagger, then crit power, along with resourceful combatant, lose a lot of value. You’re probably better off running attack speed where you can , swift slaying, and crit chance while stacking as much +power vs armored and chaos as you can possibly get.

Witch hunter captain is another interesting case. He has talents that cause crit headshots to instagib man sized enemies while also having a talent that gives the entire team +8% crit for a few seconds whenever a taggable enemy dies and having his career skill boost crit chance by an absurd amount for 8 seconds. With a rapier and proper stats you will crit probably as often as a bounty hunter, which would make crit power super valuable for him if not for that other passive that causes man sized enemies to instagib on crit headshots. Crit power loses almost all its value since the rapier will just murder almost everything instantly for 8 seconds every 40 seconds or so due to your 50% or so crit chance. More often if you ditch swift slaying for resourceful combatant.

Wow that was longer than intended! TLDR; No, outside of select few builds/classes, crit power is so much weaker than +power vs x+crit %+atk speed. It’s not even close, crit power is just bad compared to other options, even ignoring breakpoints!

4 Likes

TLDR, but :+1: for the length.

Though I agree, that crit power is worthless on anyone, but BH and WHC (well, maybe Pyro is fine), I think AS is better, so for melee all that’s left to choose is +X vs _ on Charm, and that’s not so important.

There is no crit chance on the charm.

1 Like

@NikKotovski @cartermorgan7

Carter makes a lot of good points and I likely overvalue Crit Power as I generally play characters where you’re assured of more consistent crits. For those characters, I still feel crit power is superior but for everyone else, varying degrees of power vs seem appropriate. This is annoying until they fix the green dust situation, since it means universally optimal accessories aren’t a thing.

I like it a lot on Pyro since Burning Head has a high probability of deal damage with 100% efficiency in that it will keep killing until it hits something armoured or its damage is used up. With how frequently you can spam it, crit power not only gives you more free kills at range w/o los but it also increases your ability to kill an armoured target after passing through several unarmoured ones and our synergized well with your crit stacks.

Does Trueflight work the same way? I never looked into it but it feels like it also kills until its damage is used up.

This argument is non-viable. +X would give the same benefits. The difference is hat +X is more stable, but doesn’t work on everyone, and vice versa.

Why not join the Fatshark Discord https://discord.gg/K6gyMpu