Random Questions

EDIT: Quick question as it is pointless to make a new thread for just that:

  • A Grail Knight joining mid-game will never have the Grim or Tome Duties, right?

Technical Questions:

I believe to know most of these answeres already (outside of the purely opinion based ones) but it doesn’t hurt to ask anyway to be on the safe side.

  • Power vs X: This property increases damage as well as stagger power versus x but not cleave?
  • Cleave: Not a property. I know. But cleave only effects the number of enemies hitted but not the number of enemies damaged, right? So additionally hit enemies will only be staggered but not damaged?
  • Crit Power: Increases the crit modifier by adding 0.2 on top? So if you have a crit modifier of 3.0, it will change to 3.2 meaning the damage increases is actually below 10 %?
  • Finesse multiplier: Is different for crits and headshots? So Crit Power naturally will not effect headshot damage?
  • Barrage: Has it a reset function? So if I hit 5 slave rats it will increase damage, now I hit a Stormvermin. Will the damage increase still be there if I hit the slave rats again (if all happens within the five second window)?
  • Same for Hunter: Reset function?

Opinion-based Questions:

Concerning Traits and Properties, is the more the better or should there be a “limit” on the number of Traits and Properties:

  • What would be the upper limit if we have the current system of rng involved traits and properties choice?
  • What would be the upper limit if we have a chose directly what you want system for traits and properties?
  • Should there be no limit and new traits should just be added to the pool while keeping all existing ones in tact?
  • Or would it be better to replace unused ones with other ones?
  • And add on top or not?

More questions may follow later. Not sure right now if this was everything.

There are two cleave propeties for every weapon. Each weapon has a stagger cleave limit and a damage cleave limit. For example, the war pick has 8.48 damage cleave and 22.83 (I forgot the decimal numbers) stagger cleave. Both numbers are modified by hit mass modifiers such as tank, linesman, etc.

The damage will still be there. Barrage is a raw power self buff. Hunter is power vs. So think of barrage as any other power buff you would get from a talent.

Hunter is power vs. So if you proc hunter on an armored target, you will only get increased dmg on other armored targets. It doesn’t matter if you hit a different armor type between hitting armored targets. It is a self buff that is a power vs. buff. This means that it increases your dmg and stagger power, but it does not increase your cleave. Meanwhile, barrage is raw power so it gives you dmg vs. all armor types and increases your cleave.

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All weapons have a stagger cleave and a damage cleave value. Mass modifiers like linesman or merc’s passive affect both values equally.

It’s way more complex than that, but it’s a fair-ish approximation. Though it’s an additional multiplier, rather than an additive source.

Yes. And vice versa.

Not exactly sure what you’re asking. As far as I know Barrage works in that the first time you hit an enemy with an attack from a Barrage weapon it will flag them and then every time you hit a flagged enemy with a Barrage weapon you gain a stack. This is why a single charged hagbane shot will give multiple stacks, because it is secretly hitting 3 times.

Again, not exactly sure what you’re asking here. Hunter just gives a bonus against the particular armor type of the enemy you crit. You can refresh it by critting another enemy with the same armor type again. But you cannot lose the buff if any way apart from just letting the timer run out.

What sort of limits are you even talking about? You’re being quite vague.

Sorry I missed this one originally. The way CP works is by multiplying your crit damage. So the amount of damage it adds to your attack is dependent upon the weapons finesse multiplier. It also depends on the armor type as finesse multipliers are different for individual armor types. So it’s not an additive 20% of weapon dmg added to crit dmg. It’s an additional 20% dmg added by crits. Let me know if that’s unclear and I’ll get a mathematical formula for ya.

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Hm, forgot that both are called cleave :stuck_out_tongue: Was mainly thinking for stagger cleave. Which cleave does Mercenary affect?

A formula would probably help a lot. If I see the mathematics I should be able to figure it out.

Currently we “roll” for traits and properties. Imagine now that we would have 100 traits or properties with this system. It would take an eternity to get the one you want. So there should be a limitation of possible traits.

However, if we could chose them like with the Athanor system this wouldn’ be a problem anymore. Still, does more mean better or should the game concentrate on having like eight traits which are different to each other and balance to each other and game difficulty? Same for properties


Ok I’ll work on it. I’m not sure which formula it is:

“Base dmg”(Crit Multiplier1.2) = “dmg dealt” OR
(Crit dmg
1.2) + “Base dmg” = “dmg dealt”

They are slightly different, but it’s one of those two.
EDIT: I’m pretty sure it’s the second one, but I need to test it.

J_sat uploaded a video about all this to his youtube page a few weeks ago if you want the most complete answer. He even put out the slides.

Right now the worst item to roll is the charm. It has 8 potential properties without any restrictions except no duplication. The chance to get both properties the way you want them on a red weapon is approximately 1.8% and requires, on average, ~39 rolls to achieve. Increasing the number of charm properties to 10 total would decrease the likelihood of getting the perfect set of properties to ~1.1% and
increase the average number of rolls needed to ~62.

Obviously this is extremely tedious and BAD and should be replaced. That is a given with the current crafting system. It has always been a complete millstone around the neck of the game.

A small note, but iirc there actually exists a small restriction in terms of combinations. I think it’s Power versus Monsters+Berserkers, but can’t recall exactly at the moment. I’m fairly certain it involves Berserkers though.

As far as I know the only special, non-duplicate restriction like that is that weapons cannot roll both chaos & skaven. If you have a link I’d be interested to see it.


So every non-Infantry armor class is mutually exclusive. Typical Fatshark wackiness. I’m so glad that we can just now learn this almost 3 years post-launch.

I really don’t feel like doing the probability calculations for that rats nest though, so I’ll leave my numbers unedited.

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Hm. I think you fell victim to the forum formatting. If you wanted to make * you have to use \ in front of the multiplyer symbol because * is used for making things italic or bold too. So I assume the formula is:

(Crit damage * (1 + Crit Power)) + Base damage = Damage dealt

Right? It seems odd to separate Crit damage and base damage in an additive manner. But it explains why Crit Power is not worth to use. It would be far more intuitive if it was something like:

(Damage done by critical hit) * (1 + Crit Power) = Damage dealt

I see what you mean, but it has to be separated or crit power would also affect your headshot dmg when you got a crit headshot. Again, I’m not sure if the crit power modifier modifies your finesse multiplier or is just a modifier to the “crit” portion of the damage you dealt, but it’s definitely one of those. If you don’t find it before then, I can follow up tomorrow after I have chance to test it.

Also, You’re correct about the formatting. I figured you could mentally plug in the *'s lol.

Crit power is an additional multiplier that is tacked on to the formula.

On an infantry target for most weapons the formula is essentially normal attack damage * (innate crit mod). With crit power it becomes normal attack damage * (innate crit mod * crit power). Do note that these are extremely simplified.

If we’re being stuck with the current system then there should be hard limits in how many properties the game offers. Properties exist solely for end game, they serve no purpose in early or mid game.

Traits are different, though, they are supposed to have a real impact on gameplay besides breakpoints. They let you do new things and should be strong enough to change the way a player engages enemies. We don’t need a hard limit or quota on them, we just need a selection that’s actually good.

I’m pretty sure that second asterisk should be a plus. Otherwise the crit power modifier would result in a heavy damage loss as it can be 0.2 at best.

This formula would be in line with what I posted before and would be intuitive. then again it would result in 20 % more damage for crits one would expect. But it is not what we observe. The power versus modifier usually results in a higher damage bonus despite being only 10 %.
What Sleezy posted before seems more accurate.

Your total crit power w/ 20% crit power would be 120% crit power. So it would be finesse multiplier * 1.2 assuming 20% crit power.


No. It’s definitely multiplicative. You’re assuming that the crit power term starts at 0 when it cannot. The default value of the term is 1.

It does. But only for the crit damage. Here’s a real world example that you can check on the breakpoint calculator to help you understand.

Dual daggers light 1 on an infantry target deal 7.16 damage with 650 hero power and no properties. With this same set up a crit will deal 22.2 damage. The crit is adding a total of 15.04 damage to the hit.

When you add 20% crit power, the attack will deal 25.21 damage, an 18.048 damage increase.
18.048 / 15.04 = 1.2. That is what crit power does. It only affects the damage that the game adds in due to getting a crit.

Almost nothing about how crit & headshot damage is calculated makes any sort of intuitive sense. The whole thing is massively complex and involves a hell of a lot of discreet number lookups.


If you want to get really nerdy the formula for your damage on a normal body shot is

(Base Damage • (1+ (Extra Power : 100))) + ((Base Damage • (1 + (Extra Power : 100)) • Crit Multiplicator • (1 + (Extra Crit Power : 100))) = Damage Dealt

Crit multiplicator is depending on weapon

So from your example without extra crit power and no extra power vs target:

(7,16 • (1 + (0 : 100))) + (7,16 • (1 + (0 : 100)) • 2,1 • (1 + (0 : 100))) = 22,2

And now with 20% extra crit power:

(7,16 • (1 + (0 : 100))) + ((7,16 • (1 + (0 : 100 )) • 2,1 • (1 + (20 : 100))) = 25,21

And here for comparison reasons a crit without extra crit power but 10% more power vs target:

(7,16 • (1 + (10 : 100))) + (7,16 • (1 + (10 : 100)) • 2,1 • (1 + (0 : 100))) = 24,41

Ps. : sry for the small necromancy here, i just want to make things more clearly (or

Quick question as it is pointless to make a new thread for just that:

  • A Grail Knight joining mid-game will never have the Grim or Tome Duties, correct?