Your thoughts on clunky/underwhelming weapons

I know this is kind of a reoccurring debate on here, but it’s 2022 now and we’re (probably) about to get Sienna’s last class this summer, and that will probably be the last balance patch we’ll ever get for this game.

So what are your hottest takes regarding V2’s weapons and their balancing ?

I have lots of (not really unpopular) opinions but here’s something I don’t read very often: Sienna’s Fire Sword. It’s undeniably good at what it does, which is horde-clear and staggering elites (not CW though, very bad at dealing with those alone).
However I think too much of its power lies in Heavy1. Infinite cleave, high stagger, high mobility, kinda fast sweep ? I mean sign me up. On Unchained with 20-30% melee power boost, it just wrecks everything. But after a while, spamming H1-block cancel gets old.
And if you look at the light attacks… well it’s pretty dismal. In term of damage values and attack speed, it’s just a worse One-handed Sword: same damage, same stagger, but worse cleave, slightly slower, and worse movement speed. No burn on those. Also, Light3 (the stab) is much worse than the normal Sword overhead in almost every respect. The push attack is decent because of the burn dot.
But if you’ve got enough attack speed, there is no reason at all to use light attacks… Just spam heavies :forehead:
This weapon is kind of like Sienna’s shield weapon, without the actual block cost reduction etc. IMO, this Heavy1 is probably the best shield-bash in the game.

I think there’s a lot of people who’ll defend weapons being only good at one thing, but there are examples of weapons that have thier place and at the same time don’t have one specific attack that gets overused. To me most weapons now fall into a few categories:

The Fun Dynamic Stuff

Halberd, 1H Sword, 1H Mace/Hammer, Tuskgor Spear, Bretonian Longsword, Bretsword+Shield, Great Axe, Elf Sword, Glaive, Elf Spear, Elf Spear+Shield, Rapier+Pistol, Flail, Billhook, Flail+Shield, Holy Great Hammer, Hammer+Tome, Sienna’s Mace, Crowbill.

To get the most out of these weapons, you wouldn’t want to simply spam one or two different attacks. You might have to block-cancel, use specific attack patterns, and chain them together to get the most out of them. They have a much more unique feel, and they don’t get boring as quickly.

For Example, some like the Bretonian Longsword I have developed several attack patterns:

  • You can block-cancel and use light attack 1 to attack to quickly eliminate hordes of weaker trash enemies or use light attack 1+2 then block-cancel when the timing works better.

  • For strong single-target enemies, you go heavy 1,2,3, then alternate between light 3 and heavy 3 or push-attack then alternate between heavy 3 and light 3.

  • For hordes with elites and/or shields mixed in, you can push, then alternate between light 1 and heavy 2 for sweeping attacks.

  • Being able to block while holding a heavy attack allows you to safely wind up for attacks on bosses while dodging and taking aggro. It also allows you to do the same against elites which gives you some interesting options when winding up heavy attacks and handling elites.

  • At lower skill levels you can just spam light attacks for weaker enemies and do heavy attacks for strong enemies, but you’ll find the lack of cleave and the variance of the attack patterns make it a far better weapon and far more fun to use when you learn how to chain attacks together.

The Overly Simple

Executioner’s Sword, Great Hammer, Dual Daggers, Greatsword, Dual Swords, Elf Greatsword, 1H Axe, Falchion, Sienna’s Dagger, Flaming Flail, Fire Sword.

These kinds of weapons are effective, but you usually just spam a few different kinds of attacks like lights or heavies with a few block/push attacks, and these weapons are overshadowed by weapons that are more dynamic and fun as well as the power creeping stuff.

The Meta Power Creeps

Mace+Sword, Spear+Shield, Dual Hammers, Cog Hammer, Sword+Dagger.

I suppose maybe Fire Sword is also a bit of a power creep weapon on Battle Wiz with Famished Flames and the Unchained; it definitely is pretty boring since you typically only use it to spam heavy 1.

A lot of these DLC dual-wield weapons seem like they’re meant to be like the Dagger+Sword is for Killian, but that just means almost every game I play, that’s all I see being used. These weapons have simple attack patterns and just spam either light or heavy attacks depending on whether you’re fighting elites or trash enemies. They can be fun on classes like Zealot, Slayer, and such just for damage output, but otherwise, they often overshadow the single-handed and shielded weapons which require a bit more skill to use.

The Bad Stuff

War Pick, Dual Axes, Elven Axe.

These weapons are relatively ineffective and boring. I’ll admit the War Pick can be decent on Slayer, and it is a bit dynamic in its use but ultimately less effective than many alternatives for what it’s supposed to do.

The Dual Axes are decent, but they’re only usable on Slayer, and you simply spam light attacks most of the time to use them, but they still fall short of the one-handed axe on Slayer.

Shield Stagger/Push-Attack Spam

Sword+Shield, Mace/Hammer+Shield, Axe+Shield, Tuskgor Spear.

A lot of shielded weapons are mainly for spamming the heavy attack 1 to get temp health. They are all somewhat effective and dynamic, but they can be a bit boring when the gimmick is simply to shield bash a bunch and use the stamina bar as a resource for powerful push-attacks with the hammer/mace.

The spear is similar, but you just spam push-attack and change that up a bit with light 1 to heavy 2. Light attacks aren’t that useful for anything, because heavy attacks 1 and push-attacks do more damage to single targets.

I like these weapons and they don’t get boring as quickly, but they’re not going to get much better with skill since the gimmick is simply to stagger a bunch and use the massive stamina pool. I like to use these weapons with 60% block cost reduction and 60% push/block angle to maximize defense on certain builds.

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Mining Pick:
Completely stuck in the mud, and nothing makes up for it. You can play it as Slayer, but the alternatives are more fun. The Lights are just really bad and leave you completely open if there’s Elites.

Crowbill and 1H axes:
I run Parry on these and they work (even on Pyro), but the lack of Cleave sometimes just feels horrible. Crowbill’s Light that applies a fire DoT should be AoE, and 1H Axe should just gain a Stamina Shield or something.

The Chaos Warrior damage with these, and being able to use Parry vs Chaos Patrols is really fun though. 1H Axe with Parry on WHC is crazy for fighting Chaos Patrols.

It works on Handmaiden Kerillian, but still feels awkard on her other Careers.

Kruber 1H Sword:
Completely viable, but for me personally, it just becomes frustating to face Armoured enemies. The combo takes too long and isn’t impactful enough. Crit% on Merc makes this feel slightly better.

On 2H Weapons:
2H Hammer is good, I know. But 2H Weapons taking longer to get Swiftslaying, and having low Stam/Dodge Range/Dodge Count makes them awkward. WPoS inherent Crit% on Heavy1 is a good way of fixing this.

Higher inherent BCR is something I don’t think the devs have utilized enough too.

Halberd:
It still has good killing power, but relies heavily on Stamina and headshot spam against lots of enemies and has low mobility. This causes you to get stuck in the mud, and makes it unreliable for high difficulties.

I even play Parry/Stamina with an on-kill THP (Hunter) build on Huntsman, but it still feels like a lot of effort. You need to land headshots constantly.

https://www.ranalds.gift/build/iq7VBC6RExU0VPBJnsrs/view

Exe:
Stuck in the mud in difficulty spikes.

However, playing this build allows you to generate a huge amount of THP (since Stagger THP has no enemy cap, but Cleave THP does) and stay high on damage output due to safe melee uptime:

https://www.ranalds.gift/build/fMwybRrxpWHg1nxIf6FG/view

(If you have a WPoS, you can run Power/AS Talents on the 2nd row.

2H Hammer:
Stuck in the mud in difficulty spikes + vs Shield.

Greataxe:
Greataxe can get stuck in the mud, but has extremely good killing power to make up for it.

Other than that, Dual Wield Weapons are all boringly OP.

I agree that their base damage is weak, but Shade (headshot build), SoTT (bleed build) and HM are all fine with them. They’re probably the weakest (and on of the strongest in certain builds weirdly enough) Dual Wield and they’re still good, imo.

They also have inherent Crit% for no reason and can keep SS up constantly.

I think they’re probably some of the best Weapons in the game. While RSI inducing, landing headshots and going for Elites will lead you to topping melee kills. HM/Shade/SoTT Crit Chaos Warrior build). They have inherent Crit% for no reason, so they can constantly have SS up, despite being one of the faster Weapons in the game, which has no need for inherent Crit% to get that.

My main issue with the majority of DW is just how versatile they are. They randomly have good Armour damage and Horde clear, and good mobility, and then SnD and DD have Half-Cost Pushes for no reason. Not to mention the other benefits of double attacks, like buff stacks and debuff stacks.

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There are a few of those that i agree fit into this well but i disagree for a few as well.

Elf dual swords are borderline underpowered as soon as you start dealing with mixed hordes and armor. And no, handmaiden being able to pump enough steroids into any weapon in the game to make them work doesnt change that the baseline is weak.

Ahem.

Her daggers meanwhile got the same deal as Dwarf dual axes, no cleave. Saltz Axe&falchion used to be OP but IMO is now decent for a lot but doesnt feel amazing for anything anymore. I typically run billhook if i wana win instead.

Super hard disagree on your assessment of the Axe / Sword / HammerMace + Shield weapons. If your main use of them is spamming staggers, you’re doing it wrong. I want to write an in-depth reply to explain why, but I’m actually working on a guude of sorts for these weapons which I hope to post soon-ish.

The stagger from the heavy 1 attack on every shielded weapon is the main thing that sets them apart (besides the obvious advantages of having a shield), it is just about the most effective attack you can do to farm temp health.

I didn’t give a more detailed description of how each shielded weapon is used, nor was my post about that, but I don’t mind adding a bit more to cover how each one is used.

Mace/Hammer+Shield
This is arguably the most effective shielded weapon in the game besides perhaps GK’s BretSword+Shield. To deal high amounts of damage quickla you simply use stamina as a resource for push-attack followed by a quick light attack. Spamming that simple combo is great for handling elites of any kind; even for dealing more damage to monsters. The light attacks are a bit sluggish, but they alongside heavy attack 2 are what deals the damage to hordes, but you’ll want to use pushes and heavy 1 to keep them staggered.

Sword+Shield
This one has decent fast light attacks for crowd culling but handles armored enemies miserably, even with heavy attacks. The push-attack followed by a heavy thrust, repeated, and aimed toward the head will be the best way to handle things like chaos warriors or shielded storm vermin. Again, as with all the shielded weapons, heavy attack 1 gives you that temp health farming on stagger.

Axe+Shield
This one seems somewhat inferior in most ways to the Hammer+Shield, but it offers the armor piercing. I use this one when I have a ranged weapon for crowd clearing like Drakefire weapons offer. The light attacks, heavy attack 2, and the push-attack all kinda lack the cleave to deal with crowds as with just about every axe in the game, but they are decent at handling elites. Again, heavy 1 gives you stagger.

You can tell me what you think I’m missing, but I definitely don’t have any inclination to seek out a guide. Shielded weapons are among my main goto items when it comes to Cataclysm, and I am more often successful with them. Since everything takes a beating and you need to hit stagger breakpoints in Cata or in Chaos Wastes with white weapons, the shielded weapons are among the best for survivng high difficulty scenarios by offering enough stagger to give you time to wear down enemies and get those stagger counts high enough for damage bonuses from the level 15 talents.

I use Billhook more too, but not because I find it more effective; it’s just more fun and requires a bit more skill. I almost always do better with the Axe+Falchion with less effort. The armor-piercing damage of the axe combined with high attack speed and crit chance on Zealot or WHC seem to allow light attacks to easily wipe out elites.

Between the two of these, the Billhook is clearly better designed because it requires skillful careful use to get maximum effect; whereas the Axe+Falchion does not. Billhook is a weapon one must use stamina management carefully with because the push-attack uses stamina as a resource to deliver the main attacks vs. crowds. On the Axe and Falchion, you just spam light attacks with a few pushes and push-attacks to deal with crowds like almost any other weapon, but with greater speed on heavy attacks than the Billhook can deliver and less need for stamina management.

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When you put it like that, I don’t disagree as fundamentally as I did with your first post, in which you basically reduced shields to being good for stagger but little else. The way you described it now is a lot closer to my opinion of them, even though I might want to discuss the finer points some more. In any case, I’d also describe those shield weapons as dynamic since they all have multiple combos for dealing with different situations, and multiple ways of flowing from one combo into the next.

Wasnt that because the hordeclear was subpar without it,especially post beastmen, but they didnt wana just buff the damage or cleave outright or something? I cant recall quite what was stated.

Hold up, how many dual weapons are there?
Elf : SnD, DD, SS
Krub : M&S
Saltz : A&F
Bardin : DA

Outa these, its true that most have good or at least decent armor damage with the exception of dual swords. However DA, A&F and DD all trade cleave and stamina and blockcost stuff for it. Like sure they are versatile but they all do have downsides with the exception of SnD where they are honestly hard to feel. Even on the silly high cleave M&S is the range a highly noticeable sore spot.

On that note , range is also a factor that is very noticeable on some of these weapons. Then as for the push-cost stuff, Dual daggers gets the halfcost pushes to make it work despite the unusually low base stamina&range. SnD is the one who has no reason to share that trait.

To be fair here, they did nerf the hell of melee weapon based debuffs for the elf, only SoT throws that out the window.

Pickaxe, all the low cleave 1 handers, 2h hammer, elf greatsword and Dual daggers could pretty much all use something extra to make those more viable/interesting. Currently not particularly fun or effective outside of some meme builds.

Then you got weapons like exe, halberd, dual swords, greatsword that debatably could use something but are still very much usable or even strong in some builds.

Probably left out some but those came to mind first.

Ranged wise I still don’t really see the point for swift bow and repeater pistol. Maybe throw flame pistols there as well.

Swiftbow i agree, Krubers repeater is actually good for some reason and…flame pistols used to be hot stuff but now i really do not ever see em. No idea why that is.

I meant the one that saltzpyre uses.

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