This is feedback about the current state of dwarfs melee arsenal.
There’s room for a lot of improvement, imo.
(a small test)
Made a bit of a test for all melee weapons available on Ironbreaker (except shields).
Spawning and fighting each time against: 3 maulers, 5 marauders and 5 fanatics, on Legend.
What video should show, is how easy or hard it is to use those weapons in a typical fight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCgvitEcfP8
I noticed how Coghammer and Dual Hammers allow to be much more dominant, while some other weapons feel more like fighting for your life.
Greathammer is also reliable with charged spam, but only in this context where it interrupts every enemy attack.
If we add Chaos Warriors, Savages, Monks, or just more dense hordes (if elite is 2-3rd+ target hit, he may not be interrupted), then Coghammer and Dual Hammers i think will easily win, their higher attack rate + dodge work makes it possible to be a lot more effective in those circumstances.
Slayer can make other weapons feel good and powerful, but he shouldn’t be considered in this conversation, because he’s a pure melee career with insane attack speed buffs, and great damage buffs.
We should talk about dwarf weapon balance in the context of Ranger Veteran, Ironbreaker and Outcast Engineer, cause they don’t modify the weapon parameters as much as Slayer.
And on them, i don’t see a reason to pick anything else than Coghammer and Dual Hammers (other than for style).
These 2 weapons have everything covered:
- Great THP generation through stagger (all 3 careers have Temp Health from Staggering).
- Decent horde clear speed (other weapons are either the same at best, or lag significantly behind).
- Good at fighting mixed hordes with elites - through sheer speed, cleave and stagger strength (many other options struggle with this).
- Best Swift Slaying uptime due to innate fast attack speed, and dual hammers having double crit rolls for heavy attacks.
- Amazing single target DPS (other weapons don’t exceed this).
Bonus points: with Coghammer you can hold your own even without SS active, Dual Hammers have a good mobility.
There is a point for shields as self-defence tool for ranged careers.
And those careers have certain builds to buff melee (RV - attack speed & beer, OE - power stacking & from cranking).
But the issues are still there: the build variety is lessened.
By default, most dwarf weapon attacks are over-empathizing certain attributes, while severely lacking in others.
Weapon suggestions (updated)
1h axe
On its own, using 1h axe is difficult and frustrating. Ranged AoE can compensate to an extent, something like drakefire or drakegun, but its again about the build variety. Imagine running 1h axe and handgun on Ranger Veteran.
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Increase cleave of Light attacks from 2.24 to 2.5 with added Tank Modifier.
So it goes through 1 fanatic, or 1 clanrat.
It will still only hit 2 slaverats. -
Increase movement speed while Light Attacking to the level of Dual Hammers. With similar lunging.
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Increase movement speed boosts while doing Heavy Attacks (lunges).
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Buff Heavy Attacks body shot damage against infantry and monster.
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Buff dodge distance from 120% to 125%.
1h hammer
A good enough weapon, sadly Dual Hammers make it redundant.
Trying to horde clear with this is annoying, its a constant race to staggerlock enemies while they take pitiful damage. Have to push-attack all the time, cause Light 1/2 have bad angles for hitting multiple enemies.
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Light 1 animation - copy it from Light 1 of Hammer & Shield (its a horizontal right to left swing).
This will change push-attacking from being necessary to optional.
Which will combat repetitiveness, and improve the capability to hit multiple enemies.
Then, Push-attack → Light 1 - will be two horizontal swings back to back - something extra to use your stamina for, but not a requirement to do hordeclear. You could just do Light 1 → Light 2 → Block cancel. -
Buff Light 1 and Light 2 damage a bit, to 1st target hit. Add some damage against armored (like 3-6 to the body).
Comparing horde damage from Light attack of 1h hammer (10.5+4.5+3) to 1h sword (12.5+11+4.5), its a 56% difference for 3 targets. The gap becomes a lot bigger in practice if you factor in damage cleave difference (75%). 1h hammer should still be weaker of course, but not to that extent imo. -
For context, this is Dual Hammers Heavy attack 2&3 horde damage: (13.5+6+4.5), and thats just for one hammer out of two! On top of 50% more damage cleave compared to 1h hammer!
No wonder Dual Hammers are a lot more satisfying to horde clear with. -
Nerf Light 1 & Light 2 stagger cleave a bit, to offset the aforementioned damage buff. Its a bit excessive and doesn’t do a whole lot.
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Nerf Light 1 & Light 2 stagger, particularly vs elites. Its mostly a gimmick, make it an optional path for Opportunist builds. Its also a bit silly how your hammer Light Attacks totally bully stormvermins & bestigors, can interrupt even Chaos Warriors, but deal no damage with bodyshots.
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Nerf stamina from 9 to 6.
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Increase Light 3 & 4 stagger vs elites.
Shield weapons
They could use more build variety, more meaningful builds. So Swift Slaying build would be interesting, and Opportunist build too.
General suggestions (applicable to Axe&Shield, Hammer&Shield, Sword&Shield):
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Shield bash - add 10% crit chance on this attack.
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Shield bash - reduce outer hitbox radius (the one that has low stagger and deals no damage).
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Reduce Push (inner) stagger strength vs Armored and Super armored enemies. Rough equivalent would be at 550 hero power. So you’d need +4.1% power for interrupting Stormvermin overheads.
^ relevant for SS build
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Increase Push (inner) stagger strength vs Berserkers. Make it easier to reach stagger breakpoint of pushing Plague Monks out of their combo, with Opportunist trait. It should be Opportunist + 10% power, max. Also could possibly increase Savages stagger resistance a bit (their stats).
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Make it easier to reach stagger breakpoint of shield bashing Chaos Warriors - interrupting their overhead attack, with Opportunist trait:
1] for main target of shield bash, it should be Opportunist + Enchanced power + 20% power, max.
2] for inner radius of shield bash, it should be Opportunist + Enchanced power + 30% power + around 30% power from talents. So Footknight could possibly build for staggering unlimited amount of Chaos Warrior overheads.
^ relevant for Opportunist build
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Nerf Temp Health generation from Shield bash (with stagger THP talent). Some capping is needed, so you don’t refill half of your health with one shield bash.
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Increase Block Cost a bit (inner radius).
Axe and Shield
- Increase cleave of Light attacks from 2.24 to 2.5 with added Tank Modifier.
- Buff Heavy Attack 3 (overhead) body shot damage against infantry and monster.
^ from prior 1h axe suggestions
- Reduce stagger cleave of Heavy 2 (axe sweep). It is unnaturally high.
Hammer and Shield
Have similar problems to 1h hammer, plus singletarget elimination is very tedious. Push-attack combo is 80% of this weapon, the uncharacteristically fast overhead → uppercut.
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Light 1 animation - copy it from Light 1 of 1h Hammer (angled right to left swing).
Several reasons to replace it:
1] Better headshotting and single target prioritization. There’s already enough crowd control in the weapon thanks to shield bashes.
2] More visual variety. You already have Heavy 2 horizontal swing, that comboes with Light 2 swing. -
Add Light 4 attack (overhead) from 1h Hammer, with the same position in Light chain.
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Change the combo after shield bash to: Shield Bash → Light 3 → Light 4.
This will add a singletarget option outside of push-attacking. -
Push-attack should not have a separate combo, it will be only a Light 4 overhead, then it starts over from Light 1 (or Heavy 1).
You can still spam push-attacks for damage and CC, but Shield Bash → Light 3 uppercut → Light 4 overhead is a new & good alternative.
Copied from 1h hammer suggestions:
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Buff Light 1 and Light 2 damage a bit, to 1st target hit. Add some damage against armored (like 3-6 to the body).
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Nerf Light 1 & Light 2 stagger cleave a bit.
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Nerf Light 1 & Light 2 stagger, particularly vs elites.
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Increase Light 3 & 4 stagger vs elites.
Great Axe
A fun weapon, but very punishing, doesn’t do enough to warrant the risks.
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Heavy attacks need better: damage / range / cleave / speed - in that order of being a sensible buff.
Heavy attack totally needs better damage, for headshots and bodyshots, notably against infantry & monster.
On top of that, either more range, or slightly more cleave (so you hit 4 marauders).
Because the innate attack rate is so low, the heavy attacks often feel unrewarding, unless you stack max attack speed on RangerVet, or play Slayer. -
Push attack should be buffed with better cleave, to the same level as Heavy attack.
And more importantly, Push attack should transition much faster to Heavy 2.
Doing chained Heavy attacks, you get less time window between them, than in between Push-attack → Heavy 2.
It might be an input buffering issue after Push-attacking. -
Light attacks need slight nerfs. Either damage vs armor, or overall bodyshot damage, or reduce the attack speed of Light 1&2.
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Heavy attack could use some nerfs in regards to stagger vs elites. But only in response to aforementioned buffs.
Great Hammer
Decent weapon but not great.
Annoying to horde clear with thanks to low damage and constant juggling of enemies it creates. And often the only thing you can do is keep spamming Heavy attacks, because new enemies keep skating in.
Unreliable elite control with Heavy attacks due to: mediocre attack reach, low attack rate, and Heavy attack may not interrupt an elite if its 2nd+ target in your swing.
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Increase range of Heavy attacks. Maybe for Lights too.
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Make so that if you hit an elite enemy with your Heavy Attack, no matter what target it was in your swing, that elite will be interrupted if your base stagger (for 1st target) is high enough for that elite. Sounds complicated, but in practice will feel a lot more reliable than how it is currently.
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Lower Plague Monks (combo) and Chaos Warrior (overhead) stagger requirements.
Opportunist trait should be enough to interrupt Plague Monks combo with Heavy attack.
And Opportunist+EP+10% power vs - enough to interrupt Chaos Warrior overhead with Heavy attack. -
Slightly increase Heavy attack damage vs armored, to body and head.
War Pick
A worse Coghammer in every way.
Heavy attack have two stages.
Full charge is unusable in any real fight, and its DPS is questionable even at the best of times.
Partial charge is so much worse than Coghammers heavy attacks, its insane:
Infantry: 38.75 (53.25) Armored: 19.50 (26.75) Monster: 58.25 (69.00)
Infantry: 38.75 (79.50) Armored: 33.00 (67.50) Monster: 58.25 (101.75)
Headshot damage in brackets.
And its on top of much worse movement when attacking - you feel like a turtle doing Warpick heavies, and you fly around doing Coghammer heavies.
And its on top of faster attack rate with Coghammer Heavies!
Light attacks are very similar in profile, but Warpick’s attack rate is a lot lower.
Coghammer Light attacks are like a whirlwind.
Warpick could be made strong and different from Coghammer, if we think more of an inverse Greataxe.
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Light attacks should be low-medium cleave, low-medium stagger, medium-high damage. A bit faster attack speed. Glaive’s Light attack comes to mind, for a good starting point. Try copying it and adjusting a bit.
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Moving while Light attacking - should have bursts of speed (same as Coghammer) instead of being constant, to improve the feel.
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Light attacks should destroy shields. Heavy attacks destroy shields and damage enemy behind it (including Stormvermin shieldrats).
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Increase movespeed boost during Heavy attack release. And reduce moveslow after hitting with Heavy attack.
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Warpicks unique movespeed boost - during Heavy stage 2 - should be applied much earlier (as early as Heavy stage 1 is ready to release). That could make Heavy stage 2 more usable.
If i had to nerf Dual Hammers or Coghammers, i’d do this:
Dual Hammers:
- Dodge distance from 15% to 10%
- From 8 to 6 stamina
- Slightly less movement speed with Light attacks
- Slightly less headshot damage of Heavy attacks
- Reduce stagger cleave of Heavy attacks
Coghammer:
- Reduce stagger cleave of Light Attacks
- Slightly less attack speed with Light Attacks
- Slightly less headshot or bodyshot damage of Heavy Attacks
More health than average, more resistance to pushback from enemies, etc…
