Thanks for the view. Yes I died, like many people do because ultimately it’s part of the game. I could have played it better, safer and shooting isn’t going to help me there either.
You can fight through a horde to get next to downed people and stealth revive. You can pop stealth if you badly position and lose toughness, you can pop it pretty often and consistently save yourself in situations other abilities might not allow, because you completely lose agro for that period.
There are many times as vet I can come out of stealth and hit cleave attacks on multiple enemies removing them without threat as opposed to shooting then, saving ammo for better situations.
I run a revolver and ive run out of ammo in one game so far, then meleeing and team killing things to earn a few bullets back to deal with ranged problems. I haven’t used every gun since the update to go through their efficiency, but before the update there were many guns that were preferable and there always will be with balance changes adapting to those is always going to need to be a skill.
People consistently want to point out how bad vet is now, when it isn’t, the playstyle has changed slightly sure but you can still shoot things and sit behind the melee front and pick elites and specials off. I never really played revolver before the update and now it feels amazing to play, I used to helbore and pick off specials haven’t actually played it for enough games to build around it but it still hits like a truck
Well if we are calling spades, spades I guess you don’t mind me calling you an idiot who doesn’t seem to know how to make an argument.
The Vet talent tree is a bit botched and need some fixing yeh, but he is very survivable and would say he is prolly the best. He can keep his and the teams toughness at 100%(+) almost all the time if you choose the right talents and blessings.
Also the infiltrate vet can be godly, it can take out whole gunlines, save team mates, take out multiple elites without ever being detected. This path is not as easy to play though and is probably something for more experienced players imo.
I agree that the vet needs some work, but the OP seems to not understand how to make a good built for the vet right now. I think if he’d watch some build guides on YT etc. There are some really good ones, he might change his opinion of the vet somewhat.
I am going to need you to make this argument, because I see no way in which this is even remotely possible. To outline:
Ogryn has 3 easily obtainable 10% toughness damage reduction nodes for 30%
Up to 60% damage reduction (not just toughness) 10% per bleeding enemy, which is very easy to stack now.
An additional 25% Toughness damage reduction from Feel No Pain.
These are multiplicative so you only get up to around 80%~ for toughness and 60% for health. You can get all of these, and have them going the entire fight.
The Vet can get 33% if everyone is in coherency (obviously downed allies don’t count e.t.c. - not a clutching option) and 50% for the first hit~ he takes to toughness. Vet abilities are way more situational, and gives significantly less as a total - and doesn’t help with damage to health.
Ogryn toughness regen talents are so superior and so much easier to obtain then vet I struggle to know where to start. Every Heavy attack is a minimum of 25% of his total toughness pool, two heavy attacks gives as much (and more quickly) toughness then an elite or Special kill with confirmed kill even ignoring the base 5% per kill you get in melee. You can get it on bosses, allies can’t steal the kills e.t.c.
Ogryn ult knocks enemies down, affects bosses ogryn and Mutants unlike the Vet Shout, and can also easily refill his toughness bar.
Ogryn can quite easily get 145 base toughness and 330 life, and has an extra wound. (you can get 160 toughness and 346 life but you do need to take mid ult - it is possible to get them all, including all toughness regen talents)
Vet can get a max of 155 toughness and 173 health. Getting 155 toughness requires you to go down to the bottom of the right branch, and then down middle if you want confirmed kill on top. You have basically no agency in your build, and the Ogryn is still undeniably much tougher base.
Sure on that? Because I’ve blanketed a group of shooters (elites and normals) in smoke and crouch-walked around a line of crates to shoot from the other side. And got a facefull of bullets from said shooters for my trouble. So either its wildly inconsistent in when it does and doesn’t work or it just doesn’t work except under such a narrow range of circumstances that you might as well not take them at all.
Personally my guess is they just don’t work unless so many stars are aligned that you might as take krak grenades instead and pay the 1 or 2 talents to move across the tree. As they stand now smoke grenades are basically just a tax anyway. Only instead of just paying talents youre paying talents plus the loss of a useful grenade slot for 3/4 or more of your runs.
Funny enough it dawned on me reading this post. The issue with rounding up causing infinite ammo from scrounger/scavenger was due to the really low ammo count on guns like the rumbler/kick back… lowering the passive amount of ammo on veteran hits them hard in the pocket on their low ammo guns like shotgun
I would honestly like to see you make this argument for any class-
Zealot has Enduring Faith, and Shield of contempt, one which is basically always up at 50% (you can trigger that via ranged weapon, so yes you can use it vs ranged mobs) and the other has incredible up time, and is a very silly 75% reduction.
Enemies within and Blood redemption aren’t anything amazing, but they are virtually free to get.
Vicious Offering is a 2.5x toughness regen on heavy kills (which is really good) and Second Wind can proc multiple times in a single dodge if you are in a horde being attacked, restoring insane amount of toughness with a condition that is virtually always available (even vs bosses)
And then there is Holy Rev - even the weakened form is an amazing second chance.
Not to mention his overwhelming base health and nearly the same toughness.
Psyker is the one class that is almost undeniably weaker when it comes to toughness damage reduction (his is again, way more consistent though) but is limited to 1 or 2 significant toughness damage reduction nodes depending on your ult.
His base stats also max out at 135 Toughness and 165 Life - so the only class with similar base stats to the vet.
However he gets SoulStealer, in my opinion the strongest toughness regeneration ability in the game - not even by a small margin. Illisi, Trauma, Void can all instantly (and easily) refill your toughness to 100% in Damnation/Auric+ you just have to kill stuff which you have to do anyway. Purgatus takes a bit more time, but not much. Toss a few Assail into the air towards a horde, 45-60% toughness easily. Venting Shriek + soulblaze talent - do it into a horde and again you are full toughness. Basically do anything Psyker wants to do, and you refill your toughness if not entirely, something close to it.
It is also 1 point to get regardless of your build.
Quietude another incredible toughness regeneration option that is again, basically always happening on the Psyker - you don’t even need things to kill.
And again, 1 point to get regardless of your build.
Mettle happens per enemy hit - use a purgatus staff into a group of 3 or more, and guess what, you get incredibly toughness back. (which is much easier thanks to his increased base crit, and the increased crit built into his talents) Use any kind of gun that has consecutive crit (specially if it also has cleave) like braced autogun, and again you can with great ease fill your toughness pool.
The amount of regen Psyker can get is head and shoulders above Vet, and with near infinite more ease.
And we haven’t even mentioned the shield ult
And just to be clear I am not (nor have I ever) made the claim Vet is currently weak. I do not think toughness is his claim to fame though.
I am not a fan of the Vet tree, I am much less of a fan of his three very bland Abilities, and blander Ability upgrades. Many of his talent nodes are equally uninspiring… I think many people have confused the blandness with weakness. But that is just my opinion. Vet balance wise is in a good place imo.
Playing Assail Psyker definitely feels way (waaay) tankier than VoC vet. Toughness regains nodes that are absolutely cracked and easy to get.
It’s a different playstyle since you rarely actually melee even in melee range so a 1 to 1 comparison is hard, but you can run down gunner lines just as hard and feel a lot less threatened.
I mean all of them have quite different playstyles the comparisons are being made regardless - and you can do things well enough.
and most of my Psykers don’t even run assail cause they are only fun when I want a brainless win. In melee you can just use illisi special to get your toughness back. Or if you are running dueling sword, give a push, dodge back and then explode a handfull of enemies with the staff of choice - go back into melee with all your toughness back.
I have so many more options for melee fighting as Psyker if “things go bad” where Psyker can recover from a bad situation almost effortlessly - he just has so many ways to get his toughness back regardless of what happened.
Vet is “hope there is an elite/special and that I get the kill on him” While generally that isn’t difficult to do in Damnation+/Auric as both are very plentiful, that isn’t something you always have time for after getting hit by fire, while getting eaten by a horde. “Well my ult…” Psyker has those too, he just also has good non-ult options for dealing with bad situations in melee on top of that.
So smacked with the nerfbat because no one at FatShark can do enough arithmetic well enough. Sounds about normal for this group. Rush rush rush it out the door and don’t bother to see if it actually works.
I’m praying real hard that none of these people ever decide to touch a job where people die when someone forgets to check things.
I guess I am diffrent. I love the builds. I have four diffrent builds. The hellbore one where i never have to get ammo in heresy or damnation. crit and head shots give me ammo and don’t use ammo. My stealth build with revolver is so fun and good. then i have monster hunter build with Bolter, one of my fav. and last my headhunter with the support power to lift people up when i feel like using it.
in an economy different things have different costs. psykers dont use ammo they use peril there is a differnt cost for them. its an infinte resource gated by amount per time, they dont go out of ammo they go boom.
and yes thats the entire point of an ammo economy you can have weapons that are low cost to use as a way to improve thier balance right now the vet appears to be able to use , all the HH rifles , the recon las line, normal las and hellbore, the plasma, and maybe others.
and maintain ammo easily thorugh entire levels, inded as the difficulty goes up by damnation i find running a mk 7 Headhunter you simply never pick ammo up.
but if i want to go with something like braced autoguns or full auto bolter then the balance is the ammo isnt plentiful enough to run them full time and ill have to start making choices on if its the right time to full auto.
Now im not saying this is the last step in the balance journey , id say its more then taking a first step and there is a long way to go.
as i have tried to explain many times now the mistake is in leaving things broken for this long. maybe im miss reading the situation but this is how it looks to me.
