Finally level 150!!!. Yes I know I made a previous thread, but I promise this is the most extensive one with EVERYTHING related to balance
I also participated in the Versus Tourney which I think gives me a few extra bonuses!!! (Maybe)
But in all seriousness, I got vastly of experience in this mode and I think my ideas would be “closer” to what people (Both casuals and more competitive) could want out of this mode
Remember, this thread is solely about balance, it’ll not tackle stuff like “Matchmaking” or “Solving newbie issues”, that’s up to Fatshark, the idea of this thread is to make sure hero classes still keep their identity and what’s fun about playing them on this mode, but by lowering down the level of the most problematic classes. There’s also Skaven buffs to help them a little more
Let’s being with Global Hero Changes
- Reduce wounds from 3 to 2 (So you can fall 2 times and get up, and die on the third)
- Healing Draught no longer cures wounds (Unless running last level 5 talent), but heals 50% of their max HP [Change it visually if needed to avoid confusion from the normal game]
- Medical First Aid Kit no longer cures wounds for yourself if you heal someone else
- Nerf Stagger THP talents THP gain by 35%
- Strength Potions no longer spawn by default on the map (Would only become accessible through Ranger Veteran’s “Scavenger” or Grail Knight’s “Virtue of Penitent”)
- Limit the amount of potions inside spawn to 2 (Currently it’s 3 or 4)
- Limit the amount of bombs inside spawn to 2 (Currently it’s 3 or 4)
- Remove special (grey) bombs
With that out of the way, let’s begin with each specific Hero and their Classes!
SIENNA
The class is surprisingly overall in a “Decent” spot, so her changes will not be extreme
Weapons
- Bolt Staff: Allow a fully charged “Volcanic Force” bolt to 1 shot all specials to the body
- Coruscation Staff: Make primary attack spread tighter, and allow it to 1 shot assassins/globadier if the vast majority of pellets hit (Allow it to 1 shot Hookrats if ALL and only ALL pellets connect). Increase duration of secondary fire by a few seconds
- Soul Staff: Reduce overheat generation by 25-33%
- Flamestaff: Increase Stagger considerably (should stagger everything reliably but Monsters of course). Increase DoT damage and duration against Monsters by a very considerable amount
Extra Note: I believe in the past there used to be a heat generation nerf, if that’s so I think it would be ideal to partially revert it, but if that’s removed just ignore this note
Just some simple changes to make these weapons a little more reliable and feel better to use
Pyromancer
This class is actually dominating the gamemode when played by skillful players. It has been brought to my attention that when she gets good teammates, her efficiency goes down, which is partially true, but even then she’s still an extremely strong class that gets too much value in my opinion
I love how she plays, so ideally the nerfs are just some numbers going down from her talents
- “Deathly Dissipation” timer reduced to 8s (from 12s)
- “Burning Head” THP generation reduced to 20 (from 35 THP)
Unchained
I think we can all agree she’s the worst class in the mode (Or if not worst, 2nd worst)
The issue is of course in her design, taking damage being a severe punishment in a gamemode that you can’t prevent being damaged is gonna cause some issues
However I don’t have any exact change to her, I would like the people who read this thread to suggest their own ideas (I could edit this thread later to add your suggestions)
Battle Wizard and Necromancer
I think these 2 are in a pretty alright spot regarding Talents and Ult, they feel fair to fight and powerful to use if done correctly, so their “buffs” are mostly concentrated on the weapons I just proposed to get a buff before
SALTZPYRE
It’s shocking how Saltzpyre is actually all over the place in terms of classes
He has 2 classes that could be considered “okay” (one weak and one viable), and 2 problematic classes that have been haunting the mode (BH in solo queue, and WP in premade groups)
Weapons
- Crossbow: Allow it to 1 shot Assassins and Globadiers on a bodyshot, allow it to 1 shot everything other special to the head
- Volley Crossbow: Make it stagger specials more reliably (this could be the “get off me!” spam type of weapon, that doesn’t exactly gets kills but can be pulled quickly for saves)
And no, I’m not really nerfing BoP because they aren’t the issue, they already have poor damage falloff and are a projectile in itself, it’s not “reliable” to shoot ratlings from afar, with only one exception I’m tackling later (Starts with B and ends in ounty Hunter)
Zealot
Zealot is in the perfect spot on what a class should be. Sure, he is “tanky”, but he trades the ability to reliably kill specials and has different downsides depending on which ranged weapons he uses, however his power being mostly contained on having your green HP drained, in the mode you don’t want your green HP drained, ends up with a very cool character that is very simple to understand and fight
Witch Hunter Captain
He’s not a “bad” class, but there’s absolutely no reason to pick him. Stagger ult is all he has as an upside compared to Zealot and Bounty Hunter, so I propose these 2 small buffs to help him with this issue and allow him to be the more “Middle of the road” option without outshining any of the other two
- Increase his ammo passively by 15% (This is done so that you can have the same ammo as BH when using Black Market, and to also alleviate the issues of not running Black Market, for more build diversity)
- Make “Witch Hunt” apply passively against all Elites (Currently you can only tag specials and monsters, which HEAVILY nerfs this passive. Applying this buff would allow players to keep tags only for specials, without heavily losing utility for this passive. Of course having Templar’s Knowledge would increase this damage passively against them Elites as well)
Bounty Hunter
Problem number 1: Introducing a class that can solo carry, that extemely buffs a weapon that was balanced by denying all its weaknesses. That’s the Bounty Hunter
BoP is supposed to have the following downsides:
1 - Long reload times
2 - Poor efficiency on range
Yet BH covers the both of these (Salvaged Ammunition + Faster reload pasive) (Blessed Combat) quite easily, allowing him to 1 shot Assassins (Blessed Combat ranged powerup + Crit) (To do that as either WHC or Zealot, you need to have Deathknell and hit a headshot, or Have stacked powerups and hit a headshot)
The nerfs done on BH will try to apply some limitations so that he can still bring big value to a team, but not be a solo queue carry beast anymore
- “Salvaged Ammunition” ammo increase to 40% (from 20%). No longer reloads your weapon on melee kills
- “Blessed Combat” no longer increases the power of ranged weapons on melee strikes (So now what it does is: Increasing the power of melee on ranged hits, and reset the crit on melee kill)
I understand these nerfs are harsh, but the class will still thrive even after these changes, Crit shots can virtually bring huge value on reducing breakpoints on specials. He would still be one of the best ranged class that can react quickly to threats and bring a lot of anti-monster utility in the form of damage and stagger
Warrior Priest
This is defenitely one of the most complained classes on the mode, all because “It undoes Pactsworn work”, and they can’t be more right about that
I thought about him a while, and came to the conclussion that only 2 talents make him a huge issue, which will be addressed now
- “From Fury, Fortitude” healing reduced by 50%
- “The Comet’s Gift” will now increase cooldown of the ult by 20% if this talent is selected (Slower charge), and only heals the damage done in the last second (Instead of the last 3 seconds)
These nerfs sound “mild”, but they will make a difference regarding how much potential this class has as an anchor by reducing the amount of support he can bring to the team and his amount of effective uses per match
KERILLIAN
Kerillian, against popular belief, doesn’t really have any “OP” or directly problematic classes on herself, her issues come from indirect design and 1 specific weapon being too broken (Jav), so let’s start addressing them first
Weapons
- Javelin: No longer staggers hookrats that currently have a hero grabbed (this is to prevent frustration of having a fast projectile easily deny your well deserved grab)
- Hagbane Bow: Give it the ability to consistently stagger specials. Yup, that’s it
- Deepwood Staff: Fix the bug that doesn’t allow the lift to separate a Packmaster/Assassin from their victim (Yes, currently it does nothing if used against one of these 2 while they’re attacking a teammate), and reduce the cooldown on specials to 30s (from 40s)
- Longbow: Charged damage increased by 18% (Would go from 19 to 22.50, and with Enhanced Power it would go from 20.50 to 24)
Waystalker
Changes would aim into making Serrated shoots a good talent while reducing the dominance of Blood Shot
- “Blood Shot” no longer procs if Kerillian is using Javelin (A note should be added in the talent to indicate this)
- “Serrated Shots” bleeding duration now depends on the weapon fired
- Longbow and Javelin: 6 total ticks of 1 damage each
- Shortbow: 2 total ticks of 1 damage each
Bloodshot nerf is obvious, as Jav + Bloodshot is very very problematic for the mode
The Serrated Shots rework is made to encourage Longbow usage (while also being good for Javelin) without making Shortbow problematic
Handmaiden
Her issues come from indirect balance as stated before, so there’s only 1 change I would personally do to her (And it’s an optional one, I would like if it was done, but I would understand if it’s rejected)
- Gift of Ladrielle: Banned (Just like Lingering Flames), or entirely reworked to be something else
The issue with this talent is that it kinda invades what makes Shade special, and it’s also a lot more reliable and has less risk to pull it off for saves and making pactsworn having to guess where she’ll be, this is unnecessary IMO
Shade
Shade is currently in what I would say a perfect spot, she’s very fun to play, and because she has to commit to her invisibility, it still doesn’t feel bad to fight
Sister of The Thorn
Biggest issue she has currently is concentrated in Deepwood staff, which I already tackled
BARDIN
Bardin is surprisingly one of the most well rounded classes! Even Slayer has found purpose as a semi-anchor and super boss killer, so with that said he’ll just recieve number tweaks for the most part
Weapons
- Grudge-Raker: 25% damage and stagger reduction against all enemies but Monsters
- Trollhammer Torpedo: Removed (Yes, no matter what is done to this weapon, sadly it’ll never be in a healthy spot for this gamemode)
- Crossbow: Allow it to 1 shot Assassins and Globadiers on a bodyshot, allow it to 1 shot everything other special to the head
- Drakegun: Increase Stagger considerably (should stagger everything reliably but Monsters of course). Increase DoT damage and duration against Monsters by a very considerable amount
Ranger Veteran
Only thing hiding this beast is Outcast Engineer with Trollhammer causing issues, however, his gameplay is mostly healthy for the mode so he’ll just recieve some number nerfs on some of his talents
- “Grugni’s Cunning” now gives 15% ammo (down from 30%) (Alternatively, this talent could get a whole rework on versus, like generating bombs maybe)
- “Exhilarating Vapors” now heal up to 20 THP (down from 30 THP)
- “Exhuberance” resistance is now 20% (down from 30%)
Ironbreaker
With trollpedo out of the way, his only issue is “Oi! Wazzok!” talent doing nothing, other than that he’s a very solid class
- “Oi! Wazzok!” now makes Bardin completely immune to boss damage for the duration of the ult
Slayer
Slayer is pretty much in a perfect position when its meta loadout is used, he brings utility, he’s fun, he can clutch in different scenarios (ratlings are the only exception)
Outcast Engineer
Bombs and Trollpedo are his issues, Trollpedo was removed, so now we should solve his Bombs issue
- “Utility Belt” (passive): Removed (Janoti’s idea). Bombs in versus are a huge deal, and having this class be able to carry so many of them at a time will create issues in the long run
KRUBER
Kruber is in a similar spot to Bardin, but just with a little bit more disparity on power levels among his classes
Weapons
- Blunderbuss: 25% damage and stagger reduction against all enemies but Monsters
Mercenary
Only 1 complained aspect about Merc, should be obvious what is it, however I’ll also buff the other 2 level 30 talents
- “On yer Feet, Mates!” will now increase cooldown of the ult by 20% if this talent is selected (Slower charge). This makes it so that the stagger and healing aspects are less valuable if this talent is picked compared to the other two options, so it’s more of a trade than just being free utility
- “Walk It Off” & “Ready for Action” will now heal 20-25 THP instead (either small nerf from PvE or the same as PvE)
I think the issue during the early alphas always was “On yer feet Mates” having both REALLY HIGH THP on use AND the ability to revive, but what if instead we made the one that revives heal less, and the other two heal more? This (and the wounds nerf) has the potential to actually allow people to choose which level 30 talent would be better for their comp
Foot Knight
Footknight is a very strong anchor that relies on “It’s Hero Time” to work as a class, many people have said this needs to be nerfed considerably but I feel his identity is lost once you make this talent redundant, so I will try to reduce his other problematic aspects to keep the fun of the class intact
- “Numb to Pain” timer reduced to 1s (from 3s) (Janoti’s idea)
- “Comrades in arms” damage reduction reduced to 20% (from 50%) (Janoti’s idea)
- “It’s Hero Time” no longer triggers if Kruber himself is the one going down or disabled
Huntsman
Huntsman is a sleeper OP class, it has EVERYTHING you could ever desire
- Ult allows him to 1 shot every special for 6s, with a very low cooldown
- Infinite ammo
- Shield + Stagger THP
- Handgun
He needs to be nerfed in his ability to self-sustain ammo and his ult having an extremely short cooldown + high duration of 1 shotting
- “Shot Crafter” Reduced ammo gained to 5%(Alternatively: this could be completely reworked to do something else)
- Choosing “Blend In” would reduce the duration of “Hunter’s Prowl” to 3.5s
Keep in mind you still get 1 bullet per headshot to anything, so if you wanna recover ammo without picking ammo bags, you’ll need to start headshotting the specials!
Grail Knight
Oh baby… he’s defenitely in the ruins here, all his PvE efficiency just doesn’t work in Versus mode, so here are some changes to help him
- Fix flamerats dealing knockback to him when blocking with a shield
- Re-work his quest system entirely the following way:
1. First quest is always “Kill Specials”, and will always give the Regeneration Blessing reward (Make it be 10-12 special kills)
6. Second quest is always “Kill Elites” (20) or “Kill Monsters” (1), and have it be a random reward (That’s not regeneration)
7. Third quest will always be “Kill Enemies” (100), and the reward will be a random buff (That’s not regeneration, If using “Virtue of Duty”) or a Str potion (If using “Virtue of the Penitent”)
With those changes, and Str potions being removed by default, he now should have a better and more unique role in his team
PACTSWORN!!!
Of course this guide couldn’t be complete without Pactsworn changes, as much as Heroes are the biggest issue in terms of Balance, buffing Pactsworn a little bit also helps with the issue
First, some UI changes:
- Allow Pactsworn players to see enemy Career Skill charge
- Allow Pactsworn players to see enemy Items
- (Optional) Allow Pactsworn players to see ammo count on Heroes
This should allow Pactsworn to plan their attacks better, and for heroes to watch out for their teammates resources more
Changes for special rats are quite short, so I’ll just list them up here
-
All Specials: Have the speed while in ghost mode be equal to the Assassin when in ghost mode
-
Loot Rat: REMOVED!! It’s an Unnecessary, Unfair and Random buff to the heroes
-
Assassin: Replace the knockback done against nearby heroes when pouncing someone to a small stun (0.75s max duration), alas L4D hunter. This change is to prevent heroes always being glued to each other
-
Hookrat: Fix all his bugs and he’ll be in the perfect spot (Mainly bugging people inside map geometry and Speedboost being glitched when lag is present)
-
Ratling Gunner:
1. Reduce his damage by 40-50% against Downed, Disabled and “Recovering” (playing the animation of getting up after being cleared from an Assassin or Hookrat) This should be Globadier’s Job, he should be the best at it
3. Increase the stamina depletion against shields by +400% (It’s 5 times faster at depleting stamina for shield users while they’re blocking) -
Globadier: Give him an ability to Explode just like in the normal game (Whatever limitations you want to add is your choice, he just needs to have an option to not be useless when heroes refuse to kill him in areas where he’s not effective)
-
Flame Rat:
1. Give him COMPLETE STAGGER IMMUNITY
2. Allow them to deny revives (maximumgraf’s idea)
Now when speaking of Monsters…
Since inception Troll had one complaint, but it’s a big issue. He’s useless when played like anyone would expect a Monster to play (and he still is to this day)
Rat Ogre is proof of concept that this issue was a thing (As they added a limited timer in which he becomes immune to stagger after performing a leap). This is a noble idea, however it encourages the boss to leap in, hit 2-3 times, and leave, which is still underperforming for a lot of players due to how many things can stagger either boss! So this section will be mainly about that
Bile Troll
Already mentioned what the issue is, so let’s get right on with it
- Troll’s Heavy attacks can no longer be blocked, unless the victim is using a shield (Knockback still applies to them but no damage will be done)
- Troll now only suffers stagger from the following:
1. All shout ults (WHC, Merc, Ironbreaker)
2. BW ult (To give her a little bit more uniqueness in her role)
4. Footknight charge
5. BH ult
6. GK ult
7. Slayer ult when he’s using “Crunch!”
8. Outcast Engineer’s “Piston Power” talent
So now that we’re removing stagger from Bombs, Pyro/RV ult, and many more, Troll will still be easily killed if he comes close due to his poor mobility when attacking with melee, but he will not get instantly NUKED either
Rat Ogre
Of course him being a Bruiser means he should get a few buffs on that aspect, to encourage good timing on their pressure and good aim and timing in his Heavy attacks, so the following changes will be done:
- Reduced Stagger immunity after landing on the floor to 3s (from 8s)
- Rat Ogre’s Heavy attacks can no longer be blocked (Even Shield users will not be able to block the overwhelming amount of strength of this angry boy!)
- Rat Ogre now only suffers stagger from the following:
1. BH ult, but only if the first (fully accurate) shot hits the head
2. GK ult (giving him more utility!)
3. Slayer ult when he’s using “Crunch!”
4. Outcast Engineer’s “Piston Power” talent
So in short, bigger buffs than Troll due to Troll still having the advantage of Puke being the BEST utility of all Pactsworn team
[ Since I have edited this a bunch of times I’ll be adding changelogs for people that saw the thread in the past ]
V 1.0.0
Thread Creation
V 1.0.1
- Added buffs to other level 30 Merc talents
- Changed BH ult interaction with troll (It’ll always stagger him no matter where he hits, rogre still requires a headshot)
V 1.0.2
- Grailknight Quest rework
V 1.0.3
- Changed a few weapons value
- Added Flamestaff change (The same as Bardin’s Flamethrower)
V 1.0.4
- Updated what would stagger bosses
V 1.0.5
- Elf Longbow buff
- Waystalker talents updated
