It would be nice to know what bugs are actively being looked at when patch notes are released. It would let players know if you guys forgot about things, if they’re low on the totem pole, or what’s going on. For example, Asrai Grace for Handmaiden hasn’t ever worked. It’s been over a month since release and it’s still not working. So it’s like, should the players nag the devs into oblivion until it’s fixed or noted?
Something like this would be fantastic:
Yes yes yes yes yes please
Well, of course, EVERYTHING is being looked at.
I was thinking they should start a closed thread - no comenting allowed, where one of the devs writes a short summary of the thing he works / worked on, how was the bug reproduction, the analysis, the fix and what conclusion was reached at the end.
Yes, I know devs are busy, but doing this in 15-30 min once a week shouldn’t be too hard, they can remain technical in language too, no need to translate everything to casual level.
I really wish people would stop making development comparisons and suggestions between Path of Exile and Vermintide. You are comparing a small indie studio that has 2 active games with an average active playerbase of less than 10k, to the largest aRPG currently on the market, that brings back over a million players every time they have a new season, and is owned and supported by literally the largest game development company in the world.
If you think it takes 15-30 minutes a week to do comprehensive bug testing and reporting on a multitude of bugs, then I’m going to assume you have no background in software development. The types of articles like OP linked take many hours over many weeks to prepare, typically by more than one person.
Ekhm… about 100 people is a “small” studio? Ok, let’s compare it to actually a small studio like Crate - Grim Dawn creators (about 13 people) and their communication with the community. LOL
You gotta stop trying to shield incompetence and mismanagement behind “INDIE!!!” - especially when it isn’t true. They’re close to a 100 people. Yeah, real “independent” - especially now when a third of fatshark is owned by Tencent.
Fatshark and Vermintide 2 has like 7-9 times the workforce of Ghost Ship, yet Ghost Ship puts out more updates, meaningful and consistent ones at that - they don’t need to bugfix after every patch.
Firstly, the size of the studios is irrelevant for this. Secondly, Tencent owns 80% of GGG and 36% of Fatshark, so they share that same investor.
Thirdly, you don’t need a background in software development to know about basic management skills, which is what this is. Sharing what bugs are currently known and being worked on shouldn’t take weeks or hours to do. It should be a list that’s being adjusted as they’re received and handled. Sharing what’s going on in that list shouldn’t take very long because there should already be a priority arrangement for bugs that the developers can follow. I don’t know how Fatshark handles these sorts of things, but sharing some of that information shouldn’t be difficult and is basic PR.
Regardless of any of the aforementioned reasons, making the request stated in the OP is far from unreasonable.
Fixing bugs rooted in code has nothing to do with management. This isn’t like doing maintenance on a building where problems occur and can almost always be easily identified and fixed by a maintenance crew immediately.
You can have bugs occur in code that was previously bug free without even changing anything about that code, simply by introducing new code that interacts with that old code. This type of bug troubleshooting is incredibly tedious and time consuming, and for 95%+ of the time spent diagnosing it, absolutely no progress would be made towards fixing it. This could take a single developer, with other simultaneous development priorities, literally weeks to fix without anything to show for most of that time until it is fixed. Yet you think it would be meaningful and beneficial for them and the community if they kept you regularly updated that they havent found the fix yet…
You can see what bugs have been acknowledged on the bug report sub forum. Assuming they aren’t being worked on, simply because they arent immediately fixed the very next patch is just ignorant beyond belief.
I’m not talking about that. The problem is identified by a player or dev. Let’s use “Asrai Grace isn’t working”. Then on the list they just put Asrai Grace as something they’re working on and could even go so far as to list it as a “high - moderate - low” priority. Not every player spends a bunch of time looking through all the bugs posted. Devs may find things but say nothing on the forum. If they have a list, it should take absolutely no effort to copy and paste that list or do a quick summary of things. Management is what should handle these sorts of things. It’s a management related issue. Management dictates what goes on. They should have things organized.
I don’t know what kind of environments you’ve worked in that work in chaotic fashion, but organization is a basic part of what I assume would be nearly every job. Updating a list should be basic procedure anyways. Another company that does what I described:
I don’t think this is right at all.
Management implies set priorities, universal goals among the workforce - and given how Vermintide is repeatedly updated with patches that re-release or introduce new bugs both incredibly frustrating to barely noticeable(there’s just so many) again and again heavily suggests that somewhere along the line, these glaring issues are not given the attention it desperately needs for whatever reason. It seems to have been ignored for the longest time, sure… they fix things - but there’s always frustrating bugs weighing the game down.
I think communication among the staff is a huge problem, or management and priorities, or something else over at Fatshark isn’t structured well, I’ve never played or seen a game have this many bugs reappear and show up consistently patch after patch. You’d think bugs were a feature at this point!
Unless their goal is to release the buggiest patches to be found in the industry. But maybe you’re right, maybe they have one of the best managed internal structures around; but if that’s the case, they seem pretty incompetent.
i read that fatshark does a tree system.
so the trunk of the tree is the main game. then say in may they open a branch to work on abc mechanic or whatever. that branch gets worked on for months. meanwhile the trunk is being repaired, updated with other branches, etc. the branch we are talking baout that works on abc is bug searched, etc amd then when its ready its introduced into the trunk. so now trunk has abc in it too.
except in the months that branch was being worked on there may be bugs that were brought into it that then are re-introduced to the trunk, not intentionally but because they slipped in. also sometimes new bugs that look like old bugs are brought in because the branch never dealt with that subject but yet when introduced to the trunk impacted that subject.
thats why after changes the old bugs tend to crop up some and then get fixed with patches. and then get introduced again … because there are MULTIPLE branches going all at the same time.
you are tossing around words like “incompetent” and throw shade about internal communication, management, or priorities. i cant say if its a good or bad system because i dont know squat about making a game. do you know more than zero about making a game, or how they should design trunks and branches or if they should use an alternative system, etc? if so id like to have an idea of what you know so i can internally sort out how reliable your information is.
or is this a vent in which you act like you are possessing information that enables you to make an informed decision when you actually dont have a clue (not that this is bad, most of us dont … including me) about how the game making and patching process goes? in all honestly all i know is the blurb i read from the developers and i have zero idea if that is how THEY do it or if it is how the ENTIRE INDUSTRY does it. i dont know. do you?
@endrsgm That has nothing to do with the OP. The same with what mw2544 is saying. Because mw2544 said:
But there wasn’t a comparison or suggestion based on Path of Exile and Vermintide. It was an example being used to show what is desired amongst many players. That’s it. Any game or company could’ve been used, but the format shown here is incredibly simple, small, and works well.
Any company that wants to get things done efficiently should have good organization. I would hope the bugs aren’t scattered all over with random people tracking each one. It would simply be logical that they’re compiled into a comprehensive list and management delegates what gets worked on and what the priorities are. There has to be some sort of management involved in this entire process. It’s business. And the suggestion made in OP would be excellent PR.
Yeah, I do have some experience - however not with fatshark obviously or their internal structure, it was a considerably smaller team(an actual indie , also I’m NO expert in the slightest) and I certainly didn’t participate in any coding or the likes. I got to see a bit, but you don’t need any of that to compare results - and they more often than not speak for themselves.
Structure(organisation as mentioned above) is incredibly important, especially when as you say there’s multiple trees of development.
- Purpose of mechanics, features etc
- What the game is meant to be, a vision if you like
Vermintide 2 is right now, a very mixed bag - and a safe assumption given the track record here, is a lack of a unified direction for the game. Remember, it went from “the coop hack and slash” to “dominate the competition.”
an ex gf of mine worked for ubisoft, according to her its amazing the company is able to put anything out.
i was in the usmc. sometimes i was shocked at the level of incompetence i saw.
but funny is that from the outside what often seems stupid or irrational is often for reasons unknown to the outsider and make perfect sense to someone inside who knows whats going on AND what can appear smart from the outside is actually really dumb.
so im not saying you are wrong. im legit curious if this is normal stuff.
I’d be right there with you, if it wasn’t for the fact that patch after patch re introduce bugs and completely new ones, its the norm with fatshark that something just breaks. This pattern heavily implies a flawed internal structure or process. At least a lackluster or non existent quality control.
If nothing else, it’d be nice to just have a stickied list of known/acknowledged bugs and issues. Might also cut down on the amount of duplicate posts.
There is a massive multi-staffed and varied quality control system, using a hugely diverse array of hardware and a very broad cross section of testers skill to really be able to identify every bug in the latest release from Recruit to Cataclysm.
It just happens to be paying customers who might like a relatively bug free release. Sucks to be you!
Good thing is the Dev’s will weather the storm and use your intended-relaxation time as a paying customer to identify the bugs and eventually fix things sometime soon™. Or break loads of things again. It’s like a massive lottery of Early Access fun… only without the fun.
EVEN better news is you even get to pay for the privilege of testing all the bugs for console release so console players don’t have to put up with getting hit through block! Be grateful!
Except that with a solid development process this doesn’t happen. There are multiple strategies to prevent such things. That they aren’t in place means one or two things:
- The developers don’t know how to manage branches
- Management doesn’t provide the resources for proper branch management
Your post is an explanation, but in no way a justification. It points towards a larger organizational problem.
Issue is with Fatshark’s inability to manage, communicate and program.
Management - Winds of Magic lacking Weapon Skins, Ravaged Art unlock pertaining to what spawns in the map like any other map.
Communication - Having no one to communicate with the fan base / community will only allow said fan base / community to fester with negativity that only enforces the developers lack of interest to engage with the people.
Programming - It’s become quite the thing where we’ve had bugs that should’ve been taken care of simply come back after a later patch. Either those doing the programming don’t use comments to distinguish what is what or they have multiple people messing around with the programming at the same time.
We still have specials being stuck after the event in Athel Yenlui. This bug has been in the game since release and it still hasn’t been fixed.