Let’s take your A+F vs. Falchion in 1.6 example. Falchion does slightly higher (like within margin of error in testing) dps than A+F against hordes. Falchion does over 100% more armor damage and boss damage. It had 3 more dodges and 10% more dodge range. It also had 20% crit on push stab to keep SS up. It also had more base stamina. As far as attack pattern, you could do the push stab, light, light combo that falchion used with A+F. If you wanted a different attack pattern, you could choose to spam lights or weave in heavies. It was literally an improved falchion with the option of armor / boss dps. How was it not objectively better?
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I guess it’s possible some people could lack knowledge. Still doesn’t change the fact that there are weapons which outperform non-meta weapons in basically every way.
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On BH, the only thing I’m using melee against is trash mobs. Elites & bosses get shot from range. So if the dps is roughly even with hordes, but Falchion has an attack pattern that is easier to not trade hits when I’m fighting trash, that’s what actually matters for that build. I don’t care that A+F would be better in scenarios that I’m not going to encounter with that particular build.
Wait you use crossbow on bh? I use the ‘out of ammo power increase’ talent, and i dominate quick play.
I was actually referring to 1.6. Haven’t really played much BH in 2.0.
Edit: and it was usually either crossbow or repeater pistol. Occasionally BoP.
I’ve been of the opinion that 2.0 brought some good things - I think tweaking enemy reaction times was good, I think dodge needed a slight nerf (though it got too much), and of course new weapons are never unwelcome . . . But overall it has been a train wreck. Things were changed that should not have been changed. Weapons that are considered bad now were made that way by these changes and completely unnecessary nerfs (looking at 1H Axe here, where it functionally got a massive damage nerf and a cleave nerf for no reason whatsoever; it was perfectly balanced before). Most weapons that are good now are not that way because of mechanics like Stagger; Shields were still bad until they gave them buffs (ones that I had called for since VT1).
I enjoy the idea of Beastmen, but they feel half-baked. Many of their unique qualities have been lost, and they’re just bland as a result, and far too common. I still enjoy punching Ungors in their stupid faces, though. I really wish they had been a full faction, or would eventually get that way.
My gaming rig died, so I can’t play right now, but even when it was going I actually had stopped playing. It was the bugs that got me, and that’s the biggest shame of 2.0, what made 1.6 superior; the game had finally reached the state where bugs didn’t occur every single game, or were at least not game-breaking. What finally got me to stop playing after 2.0 (which, btw, I was still playing when the current FLC map was in beta) was the bugs. Nearly every game I lost, I lost because of bugs. I reported many, typically involving the bots. And I’m not saying I’m a fantastic player, but I can hold my own in Cata, I’ve done Onslaught and Deathwish, I’ve done a few True Solos (and I typically play Solo with bots).
There is nothing that kills my enjoyment of a game more than losing because of a broken mechanic or bug. While it has gotten cleaned up a lot since 2.0 dropped, it is still in a far worse state than we had been in 1.6.
And that’s the thing. The sweeping changes made that put us into this worse overall state were (imo) just not worth it. I recall in 1.6-times, before we knew of the coming changes in 2.0, no one was asking for an overhaul. There was a low rumbling of people saying Dodge needed a tweak - and that was it. And yes, we wanted changes to talents, but we wanted the bad talents made better or replaced, not a re-do on whole trees.
Does it feel cool that if you knock down an enemy they die easier? Sure, I guess. Vermintide has never struck me as being realistic, so it had never been anything I missed. I actually loved that it was kinda old-school in that you knew “x dies in y hits” and you could plan fights around that. That’s gone, and you can’t really know how much damage you are doing outside of a vacuum, so now it’s “flail into a crowd and eventually they die”. I do not like that trade-off.
Talents are better for some classes, but others had pointless changes made that ruined their old playstyles.
Even if these bugs settle down, I feel like I’m settling for a different, slightly less fun version of the game I fell in love with. All this effort and time, and this is where we are with it. That’s disheartening. In my imaginings, when the game first dropped, I would have thought that by now we’d have 30+ maps, a few more weapons (and interesting/unique ones, like an Averlorn Bow and Grenade Launcher and Great Flail), some truly unique content through Deeds updates, and new careers, maybe even a new character. Instead I feel like we’ve mostly been treading water.
And I don’t consider it outside the realm of possibility that there will be another massive shake-up that will make the game less fun. That is another factor that leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth and just makes me not want to engage.
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FS doesn’t take our feedback you say? Haha see this is where you are wrong. FS does take feedback, but only from a tiny tiny select few (the tops on the leaderboard). Recently, someone with the name starting with b posted one single post and that had FS not only introduce changes to the game exactly how it’s suggested in that post, but also adopted certain terminology introduced in the said post. So you see, FS does take feedback, but if you are nobody like most us, it doesn’t matter how well thought out your feedback is or supported by video evidence, your feedback means sh.t to FS:)
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Wait… fs doesn’t take feedback from me and i was on the top of the leaderboards :’(. Maybe because the ‘b’ guy had well thought out arguments and views, and instead of blaming fs you could put your effort in trying to bring your opinions across the best as possible and try and change other people’s minds, if your opinions are well thought out fatshark could maybe one day take an idea from you.
Also what change are you talking about i’d love to know.
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you could do the same attack pattern w/ A+F. With more dodges and more stamina. So…
I seem to recall the A+F attacks being more vertical & the Falchion ones being more diagonal. And the Falchion push attack seemed to clear space from trash rats without leaving an opening to take chip damage. I’m not sure if the timing was slightly different or something, but I definitely got hit a lot more when I tried to push in hordes with A+F.
Timing was the same. And the attack patterns haven’t changed. Maybe you’re thinking of the first iteration of A+F that had the double swing thing. Although that was OP. It was different. I think the only difference in A+F vs F is that Falchion is right handed while the A+F Falchion chain is left handed.
Flisker has been one of the top members of this forum and on the Reddit. He’s also one of the top players, for sure, who posted a lot of high-skill content and runs. If we’re going to pretend (falsely) that the problem is FS only listens to a few people, Flisker would have been one of the people they listened to.
That’s not the reality, obviously. The reality seems to be that they operate slowly and try too hard to be original and bite off more than they can chew. Weaves were an attempt to create more endgame, but they didn’t take community ideas and just made something original. Ultimately it was a flawed idea (and while I know some enjoy them, I think it’s safe to say the majority do not) that does not play well with the game’s concept and was more than they could really handle.
It really galls me how much time and effort went into such a bad system, tbh. I like a lot about Fatshark, I’ll always maintain that they managed the hardest thing in game design, making an innately fun and timeless gameplay loop that is approachable but deep. That’s quite an accomplishment. But with Weaves and other paid DLC content they have totally dropped the ball for VT2. The time and effort that made Weaves could probably have made a new character or 3 quality maps and new weapons. I would trade all of the Weaves for even a single good map.
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If you wanna talk about something you can always pm me, i’m a great listener. Taking out your personal issues out on a public forum is not a great idea.
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I’m in agreement, taking out your anger on FS listening or not listening to players on another community member is in poor form. Let’s keep this thread clean, constructive, and on track, please.
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maybe you just aren’t cool enough for FS to listen to? 
more seriously, I don’t think most of the feedback even in the particular post that’s being referred to was taken? nerfing some of the insanely, blatantly OP stuff wasn’t unique to bio’s post, it was almost constant across all the different forums for vermintide stuff I’m on. but specific suggestions were definitely ignored.
I don’t think it’s reasonable to say that nerfing BW, spear and the 2 2h hammer slayer build were ideas that only he had lol, it was just a well written thread that got popular, with some simple enough to implement changes that had been left undone way too long.
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There is ALWAYS some stuff that is obviously more powerful than other things. Zealot transferring his buffs to ranged attacks for instance is just too powerful for a character that already gets better the worse you are at the game (sucking up hits deliberately lolololol) with an ability to ignore death 0.o meaning that combination of things on that character adds up to overpowered stuff. I’d personally like it if his THP was taken into account when calculating his damage buff from his health pool or his buffs were for melee only. Would altering this move something else up to take the place of the zealot as low risk-high reward build? Of course.
There’s other stuff generally people think might be a bit OP, BH headshotting ULT refunds ULT, Shade boss damage, Merc Ult giving THP + damage Reduction, and so on, People also think some things are weaker - Manbow, RV in general, Unchained ULT limited to one choice, Handmaiden being nerfed too hard.
It’s all subjective without the actual numbers in front of us like FS have. I happen to have a great time with Unchained and can definitely boss my way through a Legend run with her although I do agree her ult is only ever used as a panic button and THP buff as the other choices are just drab.
Good news is, we’re finally reaching a similar point of balance we were at in 1.6 about 6 months ago(!) in that most of the idiot-meme completely stupid overpowered builds are fixed and the adjustments need to be made with a scalpel rather than a battleaxe and herin lies the challenge for FS.
My personal opinion is that some classes and/or weapons need a little buff to make them closer to the middle-ground. Make Axes Great Again™, Handmaiden needs looking at, the actual utility of HS ult and some tweaks to RV, plus the aforementioned Unchained ULT. << insert your own points here >>
Bosses and Lords could do with a little inspection too, as they seem to get steamrolled into the floor 90% of the game I play in under a minute. Not really much of a threat…
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Regarding Zealot, to be fair he was hit the hardest by the temp hp decay speed increase, since his playstyle relies on it the most. It might be a bit much that his power bonus applies to his ranged weapon, but seeing as he doesn’t have many ways to sustain ammo I dunno if it’s OP. I mean isn’t Unchained’s power increase something like 60%? Seems like a fair balance that her power only applies to melee, but Zealot’s applies to both.
I know he’s strong but I’m not sure what he brings is as useful at it used to be in the current meta, especially compared to the perks of WHC.
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As @alsozara said, it’s not fair to call zealot’s range damage potential OP as he has no internal ways to regenerate his ammo- he relies on outside sources to refill his pouches. Unless you bring a ranger with or are lucky with ammo spawns, the zealot will inevitably run out of ammo.
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He’s just a great all-rounder, probably the best in the game versatillity-wise. His survival allows him to stay more offensive too.
I have to disagree. BoP is just too good when combined with the power he gets granted. It’s also easier to use than most other Ranged Weapons and has a greater payoff. That combined with being on one of the Tankier Careers, which can easily deal with Hordes and Elites and do one dodge > switch > shoot to kill Specials, not having to worry so much about taking damage, means that a good one can potentially deal with most of the Specials WHILE frontlining.
He just doesn’t need the Ranged Weapon Power at all. He already has two of the best Melee Weapons and mechanics, and survival in the game.
Zealot has always been at the forefront of my mind when thinking about balance in this game. In so many games (especially Blizzard), tankier characters with high damage output become overtuned, because the people doing balance don’t realise that the survival = damage. The more damage you can take while putting out damage means you can pretty much become unkillable in some cases.
When compared to IB and FK, he has similar levels of survivability, but also at least 3-5x more killing power. If either of these Careers gained high Power BoP it still wouldn’t be comparable to what Zealot is capable of.
This type of inbalance popped on my radar from playing WoW WoTLK arena for years, and realising the most popular comp in 2’s, Warrior/Paladin, was only strong because of the survival while putting out damage.
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I’m not sure I quite agree with your comparison here. Zealot is not as tanky as IB, and definitely not more tanky than shield FK. Most of Zealot’s tankyness comes from THP generation but with the increase in decay speed it’s not hard to end up pretty low at the start of a conflict and be at some genuine risk.
Both those classes also offer significantly more control, and more general team utility. Agreed Zealot beats them in spades when it comes to versatility.
I dunno he just doesn’t feel particularly overpowered to me but maybe I just suck. He also hasn’t been heavily represented in QP for me on Legend recently but admittedly that’s not a great sample size.
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