What?
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This is where youâre wrong. There is no reason to use any of these weapons except for the meme value or because youâre bored of the content. No one is taking these weapons if they are try harding. That was my point.
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I use Greatsword unironically. It is honestly really solid and Iâve used it in Legend QP, C3O and Legend True Solo. Whether or not something like an Executioner Sword is better Iâm not actually sure, since I actually donât have much experience with that weapon, but I can definitely say that Greatsword is, I think, better than something like a Halberd.
Thereâs significantly less value to the Falchion though. It has weak defensive properties, no exceptional offensive capability and itâs only advantage is decent mobility.
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Talking about on Salts. I use Greatsword on Merc when Iâm bored with spear. Although, there is no reason to take Greatsword over spear except to cope with boredom.
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Aye, the spear is really really powerful, definitely the strongest, most well-rounded weapon Kruber has, but disregarding that, I think Greatsword is good.
I havenât used Greatsword on Saltzpyre, but I think it has good applications with Zealot or WHC Flense build. Of course, there are other, probably better options like Rapier, Billhook or A&F.
Yeah thatâs my point. Greatsword is a fine weapon. But Falchion was a fine weapon in 1.6. In fact, on legend, Falchion did slightly more horde dps than A+F on zealot. But itâs niche ability is not powerful enough to make up for how good A+F was at everything.
Greatsword is kinda in that same boat. It probably does slightly more horde dps than billhook, but gives up huge monster damage, mobility move tech and armor damage.
Like you said, a lot of weapons are fine, but there is no reason to bring them if youâre tryharding. Thatâs the point Iâm making. And letâs be honest, most people are going to want optimized loadouts to chase those green circles.
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Except your âtry hardingâ is a specific playstyle. Maybe someone else doesnât like the feel of the weapons that allow max DPS, or maybe they prefer to play a more defensive/support role instead of just going for every green circle each map. That doesnât mean that theyâre playing âwrongâ, and if the weapons theyâre using still allow them to win the map most of the time, then itâs as balanced as it should be.
If different weapons appeal to different people, thatâs a good thing. Thatâs totally not new to 2.0, though â everything but shields was used in 1.6. I think a lot more weapons are pretty bad now than were bad in 1.6 â mostly because changes to enemy tracking make cleave & stagger almost essential. If youâre using a 1h axe, youâd better have a teammate who can crowd control.
Thereâs always going to be a meta & whatever the most popular steam guide recommends is going to be used more often than other setups. But just because other people canât clear enemies as fast as you can with their preferred build, it doesnât mean itâs invalid. And no, a lot of us donât want âoptimized loadoutsâ; a lot of us want weapons that mesh well with a playstyle that we enjoy.
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Youâre making the exact same point I was making.
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No, Iâm not. You were suggesting that thereâs a clear âbestâ weapon & people only use anything else because theyâre bored of that weapon. Iâm saying that I might dislike what you consider the âbestâ weapon, and Iâm not wrong for preferring something else. I didnât get sick of A+F in 1.6; I tried it and never liked it at all.
But it doesnât change the fact that in this hypothetical situation, A&F is the best weapon regardless of whether you like it or not. I really like Greatsword, but I donât deny the fact that it might be weak to some or that itâs not meta.
This was the whole point of the discussion. And this was my side of the argument. And there is a clear âbestâ weapon (or small group of weapons). Whether you personally use the best weapon or not doesnât mean it isnât mathematically superior to other weapons. Youâre not wrong for preferring something else. Itâs a game. Do what is fun for you. I also didnât say that 100% of people run the meta. I said most people. Idk what youâre point is other than to say you donât like A+F.
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Actually, my success rate was higher with Falchion on BH than A+F. For some people, they did better with A+F. For me, I ate a lot more chip damage when I tried to use it with BH. I genuinely felt like Falchion was the better weapon. DPS might not be as high, but I won a lot more often & did not need to be revived by my teammates as much.
Thatâs completely subjective. It doesnât matter what youâre good at or what you prefer or like more, fact is, some weapons are absolutely overall stronger than others. I personally might like 1h sword on Mercenary, but to say that itâs better than the heavy spear because of anecdotal evidence such as âI play better with 1h sword than with spearâ is useless because it doesnât change the fact that spear is objectively better than the 1h sword.
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Something canât be âobjectively bestâ unless itâs best in every possible dimension. One weapon might be higher dps against single targets; another might be higher dps against dense hordes. One has slightly better movement speed. One ignores shields. One is strong and safe but covers half the screen every time you block. Different people have different playstyles and different strengths & weaknesses in their own game. The weapon that fits their playstyle and helps them win most often is the âbestâ weapon for that person.
Which is exactly why I said âoverallâ. There is absolutely no denying that some weapons are, overall, better than others, and certain aspects donât matter as much when compared to others. Personal playstyles are completely irrelevant when looking at objective and factual stats of weapons and how well they perform.
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But as soon as you try to get to an âoverallâ rank, youâre making a judgement about how much weight to give to different things. Letâs grossly oversimplify, and say that there are only two weapons. Big weapon has high dps but slow movement speed. Small weapon has low dps but high movement speed. As soon as you say one is better âoverallâ, youâre making a judgement about whether dps or movement speed is more important.
I think that 1.6 was in a place where everything but shields was good enough that differences between weapon stats didnât matter; A+F may have been highest dps, but the dps was not so high as to make other weapons irrelevant. Other factors mattered too, such as cleave & attack pattern. If I value cleave & attack pattern more than dps in my formula for determining âoverallâ best, then some other weapon might rank higher than A+F.
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Irrespective of whether someone has a better âfeelingâ of playing a weapon or not, the oneâs that are listed as being god-tier are there for a mathematical reason; They simply do more for what they are or cover more areas of threat than others.
A+F has been top tier for a while because of the stagger/anti-armour/horde clear with quite good dodge and block possiblities. This is mathematical in that there are absolute facts that prove it causes more armour damage, has a better swing pattern to kill hordes and reduces the risk of being hit as opposed to the Falcion or Axe on their own. Whether anyone thinks A+F is weaker doesnât matter if the maths shows itâs stronger.
Same with the spear. It simply has better statistics to offer a safer way of doing the run.
I donât want every weapon to be this kind of god-tier, because Iâm the kind of player who challenges myself by learning to play well with everyone if possible. Except elf who is a crutch for noobs. 
Iâm playing RV with 2H axe and Crossbow at the moment and holding my own quite well in Legend. I know itâs not as good as the dual hammers shotgun build but itâs a way of challenging myself. I donât go around claiming 2H axe is better than 2H hammer though, as thatâs just a bit stupid as the facts prove the hammer is better.
As for the burnout described in the OP, I think Deeds might have solved the problem, but alas now with WoM the hope for simple modifiers added to runs is removed.
IF deeds couldâve been crafted/brought and the difficulty selected with the different modifiers affecting the run without relying on the deeds dropping, and the reward based upon the modifiers added then the possiblity of variety wouldâve mitigated some of the burnout of repetition of runs.
WoM prior to launch gave me the impression we were getting something very similar to that only with winds as modifiers of existing maps etc.
Now a rework of deeds that is anything close to my suggestion would make Weekly Event obsolete, Twitch fairly obsolete as a game mode other than streaming, Weaves even more pointless if you can rustle up your own modifiers in QP adventure maps and generally make most of the various different ways of playing a bit redundant.
In fact, I think this is exactly what FS should do. Get rid of Weekly Event, Get Rid of Weaves, Get rid of Leaderboards, Get rid of Twitch as a seperate mode.
Players should run over to Olysia, have a chat, open up a menu, slap on whatever the hell they like to cook up some game mode that suits them and then start the map.
Tzeentch Twins on Against The Grain with Wind of Asqy, Harder, Better, Faster,Stronger and Send in the Next Wave! for 3 Emperorâs Vaults and 50 shillings.
Twitch mode on Empire in Flames with added specials and double boss spawns for 4 Emperorâs Vaults.
Problem is now, whatever they do with deeds will be lacklustre because thereâs nowhere to go without making some other thing fairly pointless. Either Twitch, The Weekly Event or Weaves will become overshadowed, so deeds rework will be a bit pants.
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Look man, Iâll just do it simply by comparing 2 weapons then, tuskgor spear and 1h sword.
Tuskgor spear has: same stamina, built in BCR, double the push angle, wider push radius, strong push (before an update it had a push that could stagger CWâs, maulers and Stormvermin), wide, high stagger sweeps, substantially better armour damage, similar if not better DPS. It has way more crowd control, defensive properties and offensive killing power.
Now what does 1h sword have? It has very very marginally better mobility (I think? Actually not even sure), and uhhh, better at killing simple slave hordes with slightly better damage?
If you could enable âWindsâ on adventure maps & then each segment of the map spawned with the effect of a random wind, thatâd be pretty sick. 100% agree that they should just be looking for ways to bring more modifiers into the existing maps.
Edit: @Rebel, I donât mean to suggest that there are no A vs B comparisons with a pretty clear consensus A > B. I would agree with rough tiers for weapons; Iâm just taking issue with the idea that thereâs one clear best weapon and anyone who uses a different âgood tierâ weapon is knowingly not using the âbestâ weapon.
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Just to be able to play the full Against the Grain with the fire wind wouldâve been enough for me. I played enough weaves in the open Beta to decide itâs simply not something I want to do.
Even something like instead of a boss coming out of the Barn, having 30 SV pile out would be a bit of a surprise every now and then. No plague monks though, I hate those filthy screeching ar$eholes.
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