Why someone with 5000+ hours decided to quit

Before I get into the nitty gritty I wanted to take a moment to thank FS for making Vermintide 1 and two, and to thank @Hedge for being such a good sport throughout my time playing these games. Now moving on.

Winds of Magic wasn’t the beginning of the end but it was certainly the straw or multiple straws that broke the camels back. There have been some reoccurring issues in development starting at V2s conception, that are generally speaking negative factors involving the health of the game, these range from unnecessary balance issues, rage inducing RNG, and arbitrarily massive grinds.

Winds of magic did little to fix these issues and in fact exacerbated them, forcing players to do repetitive content to even unlock the newer maps or weapons added to the game, before once again embarking on seemingly never ending grinds for a few thrown together cosmetics that still dont match armor sets.

The new units while conceptually very interesting have infested the majority of maps making the game feel less like vermintide and more like beastmen tide, not to mention the changes in combat while toning down the power creep that was cleave, created a whole new slew of issues that basically forced us back to square one. While cleave itself it not as powerful, the talent trees make for easily abusing certain weapon types to be just as deadly as their prior counterparts. The unfortunate byproduct is that weapons still have a tier list, where certain ones feel useless or unnecessary , and the combat in general seems to be slower and feel a lot clunkier, what adds to that fact is super poorly designed attack animations / cycles, and lack of more usable stagger mechanics.

The added difficulty theoretically was something I was highly anticipating hoping it would be closer to onslaught or deathwish but instead its kind of just legendary + 1 and after you relearn timing to compensate its the same gameplay loop as legend and it feels like nothing has changed outside of combat generally being worse (feeling) and games lasting longer with slower pacing.

Class redesigns also felt bad, some seemingly way more complete than others and there was a ptheora of uncompleted, buggy, or useless talents which is mad worse by constant balance changes that seem to gut any interesting build while leaving the most glaring issues unchanged for elongated periods of time. The nerf bat response as opposed to actual balance adjustment seemingly ends up to be “pruning” making each career lose its flair, eventually grinding them down into boring dull husks of what their career was intended to be as opposed to actually trying to find a nice middle ground where classes have distinct differences or situational utility.

Also weaves haven’t had a positive impact on the game, urging players to abuse unfixed issues, bugs, and cheats while pushing developers to balance around a very specific style of game-play due to its competitive nature.

TL;DR the game is grinding to ad nauseam for no substantial reward as it has always been, but the core gameplay was always fun and engaging no matter how many hours I sunk into the game I loved it, till slowly the life seeped from not only the career paths, but the gameplay itself which feels, sluggish, clunky, and a farcry from its former glory.

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At this point I have to ask what kind of game you know that gives you substantial rewards after thousands of hours. You’ve played Vermintide like a full time job.

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Wait, wait… >5000 hours?!

Vermintide 2 was released 3-2018. So lets round off and say 2 years ago. Thats 2500 hours per year if we also round off at 5000. 2500 hours divided by 52 weeks a year is about 48 hours a week.

That’s about even more than the time typically spent on a full time job. Without any days off or holidays. And that’s when you round off downwards at every calculation so that’s an underestimation as well.

Dude, don’t get me wrong, and I love this game myself as well… But it sounds like you have a problem on your hands here. Maybe it would indeed be a good thing to take a break?

EDIT:
If you included V1 in the 5000h, it would come down to about “only” ~22h/wk. Not nearly as crazy a number. Still a lot though. That’s a few hours every. single. day. for years at an end…

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And I thought I was bad during WotLK

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I’m assuming he’s including vermintide 1.

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Oh, right, off course. Good point.

Then it comes down to about 22h/wk, if he played since it was launched. Still a lot, but not as pathological. My bad.

I would say yes beastmen are still biggest issue that makes ppl mad, because of how they lack a lot of stuff (like you can’t restagger them and they stagger forward, they stagger animation is crazy similar to headbutt, have higher range attack than your push and loves to just walk into you blocking you from moving)
But gameplay loop is still good still fun, you probably just burned out, seriously playing too much same game will always do same thing, you will burn yourself out. But counting that even when that game is buggy mess sometimes its still one of most fun co-op fps with amazing atmosphere (dark no hud combo for even stupid against the grain its so amazing)

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I mean, if I play 5000+h a single game, I would certainly go somewhere else after a while. Nothing real about the game itself :

  • Talents post 2.0 are way better than pre 2.0 by a huge margin. (remember the “on boss death, heal yourself” talent ? I remember.)
  • Added difficulty could still use some sort of changes, it’s spongy, and indeed a bit slow, but it doesn’t remove the previous difficulties. (which I did point out during WoM beta)
  • Nerf bat was needed.
  • Weaves s2 are a huge improvement of s1.
  • The core gameplay is still there (especially after the few patches that came out in order to made the feeling go pack to pre 2.0).
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Im including V1 and Betas. Additionally, I think you all are focusing on the wrong thing. As opposed to debating my playtime feel free to challenge me on any of the issues presented, I would love to pick the game up again but virtually no one I know continues to play, this is somewhat a compilation of the issues we’ve had post WoM, and throughout the game’s history.

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While everything you said is correct, and might be a reason for you to burn out or quit. Everything has already been said before, i took breaks before and currently not playing as much aswell. Nobody is gonna challenge you because everyone has those issues, but if those issues make you quit forever, than there is nothing others can say.

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Yes, I realized you must have meant V1 as well. That makes sense. Should have realized earlier.

As to debate: I’m not sure what you want to debate. You made a post about the reasons you quit. Do you want us to challenge those reasons? Try to convince you not to quit? If you could clear that up we’d know what to say a little better.

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Pretty much this. I think we all pretty much have those same grievances.

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I suppose I was interested in hearing peoples thoughts, if you agree or disagree or have any solutions to the above issues stated for FS moving forward, anything constructive really.

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I don’t think it really matters what solutions any of us have. FS doesn’t care what we want or what type of gameplay we enjoy, FS is gonna FS and we’re gonna like it or quit. Personally, I’m of the opinion that the game has completely lost its way with 2.0. Sure, there have always been mismanagement problems, but since 2.0 it seems like even if they managed to do everything they’re trying to do, what they’re trying to do is actually bad and not enjoyable. The game is still installed just because I want to like it, but I really can’t bring myself to play it more than once a month these days. And it’s always disappointing.

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I think most of us would agree with at least a good number of your points. I think how much these things take away from the experience, as well as how many things you think have changed for the better is gonna be where a lot of people differ.

Personally I feel like the game is in a better overall state than it possibly ever has been. It’s just there’s been so many steps backwards along the way, and the general pace of improvement can be pretty frustrating.

I definitely think the classes and builds are much better than they were pre 2.0, but I’m sure peoples’ perspective on that will vary a fair bit based on what classes they spend the most time with. As someone who dabbles in nearly every class (though admittedly not at Cata level) I’m finding a lot more to play around with and try out these days, and generally feel like I have a more even success chance regardless of career picked.

I definitely agree the stagger mechanic is clunky to properly capitalise on as a team, and I do feel hordes are a bit more erratic and difficult to deal with, but honestly I’ve quite enjoyed trying to adapt to it.

Weapon balance definitely needs some work, and another balance beta or something similar would certainly be very welcome for me. Maybe I’m just being delusional but I feel like the current version gives us more interesting balance options, as defensive properties are generally worth more than they used to be. I’m hopeful for how the balance will develop from here, but again not a Cata player so probably missing quite a lot to give an educated opinion on where balance is at.

The amount of grind involved is definitely one of the biggest deterrents for me besides current performance issues (hasn’t been an issue until recently, but oh boy has it deteriorated recently). Personally I deal with this by taking breaks and generally play sporadically and in bursts these days. I recommend just taking a break and keeping an eye on this space to see if there’s anything happening that pulls you back in.

Cheers for making one of these that’s thoughtful and not aggressive or entitled which is unfortunately how these kinds of posts usually go. I hope FS can restore your faith in the game one day.

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Now, I read more the forum that play the game.

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Well, since you asked although I probably won’t go much into detail. I’m not sure what solutions you are seeking for and I think everyone can agree that at a minimum the large number of bugs are a problem and annoying. I can also see the point of not enjoying the game anymore and getting kinda burnt out. Personally, I reached that state during 1.6 which for me was not enjoyable at all and a design failure.

This said, personally again, I largely enjoy 2.0, the combat changes, the talent changes, stagger mechanic and the Weaves. Since 2.0, I feel the game finally has a lot of diverse and suitable builds while before everything was just meta’ed into dps, dps and more dps. Classes now feel different and nearly all weapons have niche functions. While you technically could play everything before (you still can on Legend and below) you didn’t see much diversification. 90 % of all public runs had Axe&Falchion. Now, I see nearly all weapons in use depending on build (even Greatsword and Falchion, no 1H Axe though).

So, yea 2.0 has done a lot of good for the game in my opinion. The Problem? The launch was largely overshadowed by the bugs leading to a negative emotion coupled to 2.0 which had nothing much to do with the actual gameplay changes. I also do not agree that the game feels clunkier because of stagger, especially in Legend and below. You can still dodge and kill like before. Granted, I am and Always was more of a defensive player using shields before 2.0. But now people see it as helpful and not dentrimental. Crowd controlling finally has a place.

So for me 2.0 is superior in every way and I very much like the direction the game takes since August. In my opinion, it also is in line what they always had in mind. Making a challenging coop centered game. The problem is that the community is very talented in finding and abusing exploits (range meta, dodge meta) which needed to be adressed. But every change they did to the game is leading towards a single focal point. I also do not agree that FS isn’t listening to the community. Nearly every addition to the game as well as balance changes has been requested in the forums at one point. But even if 90 % your community would approve of changes/additions you would have 10 % displeased complaining in the forums leading to a start contrast to reality leading to comments like Fatshark being out of touch. Enough time and you would have a large group displeased with single aspects of the game but enjoying the rest. However, they would group together despite having different goals. And of course, we also have people just hating everything, seeming like they are in for some form of hardcore masochism by playing a game which makes them suffer.

As for the grind, I can’t make a point as I am mostly numb to such things. I played L4D for 900 Hours which had no grind at all. So if I play Vermintide for 500 Hours I would get done most of the “grind” anyway even without trying. And I think this is one point we should keep in mind. We should just keep playing normally without regard for this stuff and we get it naturally anyway. If I see people making speedruns on recruit to get Weekly Quests done, then yes, of course they would lose joy. The irony is that they would get most of the quests done anyway by just playing.

So yea, we are disagreeing on a lot of stuff and we both are not alone. I admit this. Still, looking at the available numbers I would say that most people are okay with the direction of the game. I would also say that the player numbers show that neither ranged meta nor 1.6 have ever been former glory as both suffered from a significant player loss. Also, as I read recently that “All we needed was Cataclysm”. I think this is wrong because Cataclysm would not have worked with 1.6 and I think FS actually explained that somewhere in August/September.

Personally, I would like to say some polish for the presentation of the Weaves, for the existing DLC’s, for the Helmgart maps. More secrets which lead to somethinng unlockable or alternative map endings. Stuff like this.

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Just reading this single line angers me profusely. These are not exploits that need to be adressed.
Dodging and ranged combat are much needed features that are needed in a game like this.
Had this been a PvP game, sure, maybe they’d need to be adressed. But this is a PvE horde co-op game, you need those game features to be successful.

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I did not say that they are not needed. I just say that they went further than they should, namely that ranged weapons did grant THP in the beginning (leading to risk migitating by gaining health with very reduced risk) and that the dodge also was obscenely powerful.

The mechanics themselves are needed and a core of the game. But they needed to be toned down.

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As a wood elf player, I disagree that ranged weapons shouldn’t give THP. My class specializes in ranged combat, why should I get all my THP from CQC?
And also, as a very squishy character, I mostly have to rely on my dodge if my attacks aren’t ruthless enough to stop the enemies in their tracks. Dodge wasn’t “obscenely powerful”, it was exactly how it should be, because nowadays you can’t finish a single game without trading unavoidable blows after the ridiculous and unneccesary dodge nerf.

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