that was always like that, ogryn is a moron so their crits are bad anyway…unless like the new stubber (which has surgical). the weird one is when they buff stuff like the finesse modifier on the rippergun…trying to do cavalcade off the brace doesn’t work, and the best ripper sucks braced.
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Ogryn (and everything but vet) used to have a baseline 5% crit chance, with some of their weapons having random modifiers for crit. (This applies to everything though and is rarely explained in game if they don’t have a crit stat. Not actually random, just that it felt fairly arbitrary)
My mistake for assuming Fatshark wouldn’t keep changing even baseline stuff like that. (The sass is annoyance at Fatshark, not you)
EDIT: Old stat chart:
Regardless, vet’s node is still just a better version of ogryn’s keystone for lasguns 
Stuff like this almost makes me feel punished for being a returning player, with how they constantly change small things in the background but don’t actually let us see them.
I wouldn’t even call it good on Rippers, since on average it is +2~ extra shots per mag and in general the Calvacade Flechette Gunlugger is a meme build that consumes enough ammo to supply 2.5 players with the damage output barely surpassing one player.
There is also Unstoppable Force blessing on knives which works similar if you want to ignore enemies hit mass.
So witch one is the better one in your opinion? I think both are good.
I think you are missing my point, ofc both trees has good/bad talents my point is just because the Veteran has more of them, that doesn’t mean that it’s better.
And the quote well it’s my subjective opinion, veteran has been my no 1 played but he isn’t as flexible in his builds as the Ogryn in my opinion. (and that makes veteran less fun for me((even though i have fun builds and enjoy playing veteran))
What is bait?
I have perspective, I play all classes. We don’t have to agree, I am sure we probably play this game very differently and that is fine we don’t have to agree.
And sure it would be fun if Ogryn got more nodes to pick and choose from but my point with my post was in a sense “Less is more”.
I don’t that’s the reason Ogryn is unrepresented (is he really that unrepresented?) i think it has more to do because he leans toward the more supportive type of playstyle and size difference.
The Ogryn keystones are so bad that each one seperately is just a worse version of what another class has as a non-mutually exclusive non keystone.
Heavy hitter?
Zealot has this:
Slightly less tuning but far easier and faster to stack.
Lucky bullet?
Vet has this:
Vet can also get upwards of 50% crit chance relatively easily and consistently
Feel no pain?
Other classes have this:
Take your pick of talents that provide more toughness DR (by the way, it’s lying and it provides neither Damage Reduction nor Toughness Replenishment - it actually provides Toughness Damage Reduction and Coherency Regen. It also doesn’t stack the way you’d think with itself, so it’s actually 21% or so at full stacks) and don’t become less effective the more you get hit.
Meanwhile, let’s look at the benefits another classes keystones provides:
Vet example:
Zealot example:
Psyker examples:
Wow, what’s this, unique cool mechanics you can’t get anywhere else that completely change how you play and reward you for it? And the tuning is actually relevant and the bonuses are bigger and better than blue nodes? Crazy. Meanwhile Ogryn gets shitty versions of other classes blue nodes. I do not agree whatsoever that Ogryns talents or keystones are more interesting. The only reason he even picks keystones is because his blue talents suck even more and he gets nothing out of skipping them unlike Vet.
As for support gameplay, the ogryn has barely any relevant talents for it. He just does it via staggering weapons and the skullcrusher blessing. He only gets one impact node which is mutually exclusive with picking the fun grenade, and competes with his only other relevant support node (soften em up)
I have honestly genuinely no idea what foundation for your opinion that Ogryns talents are more flexible and interesting could possibly be. They’re rigid and boring. On top of that the tree is nonsensical and badly designed.
Ogryn needs a complete tree overhaul with lots of interesting nodes added and the keystones reworked. He doesn’t need to get stronger really, he needs to get more interesting.
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It depends if you want to take advantage of Crunch!. I do, against crushers, but if you have to wait that the heavy hit starts itself (to get crunch! bonus), this is really long.
Worst keystones are Veteran as first and then psyker ones.
Zealots are greatest, and Ogryn are just behind. Ogryn keystones are pretty good (problem is feel no pain)
There is no point in using Crunch at all, you can one-shot Crushers with a pick without it.
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Really? I always thought I’d be happy if veteran had psyker keystones. Disrupt Destiny and Warp Siphon are both bonuses veteran wants and conditions that fit veteran, names and modifiers aside.
because all of the other classes have a lot of variety to how they play, and the only actual issue is how powerful gold toughness is. but considering almost everything else but CDR stacking is ignoring teamwork as a concept, I dunno if I agree that it should be gutted on principle alone.
like this is patently not subjective, you can absolutely play more builds through more nodes. we can play a semantics game of them not all personally ‘jiving’ with you but you at least have an option. I only think executioner stance still suffers from being overnerfed (give it 60% toughness on activation already seriously). its sort of like how people talk up the no keystone vet that I personally don’t think is worth it anymore. the fact that this is presented as the best option by some people whereas you will never vary from the 25 ogryn talents you see in every build is actually a big deal.
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That’s why I said that veteran are the worst…
I never use them. At contrary I often use psyker keystones.
And I always pick one keystone as zealot or ogryn.
I know, and you said psyker keystones are second worst. I’d give that ranking to ogryn personally.
Nothing wrong to have a different opinion. However, for psyker 2 of them are, in my opinion really bad.
I don’t like the rabbit hunt keystone (destiny) that’s really something annoying. And empowered psionics is pretty bad. So, in my opinion, only the first is good.
At contrary, on ogryn the first is great, the second is… not good and the 3rd is pretty good also.
But all this is just opinions.
However for the veteran, all of them are bad, the second (focus target) is a little better (but still I have better options than this one). At least, this is the class where I never wonder if I will pick a keystone… cause I pick one really rarely (when I say rarely it is like 1 mission over 200).
Whay? How do you not use focus target? It’s amazing.
^
LOL crunch, the worst noob trap in the game, it may as well require Limbsplitter to work.
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I’m not gonna discuss specific nodes and skills because of the rabbit hole discussion it will lead to, i can just say that i don’t agree.
Saying that Ogryns are more flexible was a bad choice of words from my part. They may be boring but a majority of Ogryns talents are boosting what the Ogryns already good at, taking damage and staggering in melee. And if you want to do a ranged build that is also viable.
Indomitable
Pulverise
Attention Seeker (really strong for supporting)
Batter
Soften them up
Are all really good support choices and you can chain them in to damage and tankyspanky builds.
I would say that the tree is better designed than the Vet’s i am not saying that its more interesting, The choices matter more and you are not as much “must take” choices in the Ogryns tree (for me).
I think the Ogryn is in a good place! But i agree it’s always more fun with more choices, but they gotta matter and be impactful so it doesn’t become like the Veteran’s tree (and that was kind of my original point).
Theoretically maybe, but the higher the difficulty the more limiting it becomes.
Sure flexible was a poor choice of words, I’m trying to say that Ogryn’s talents generally are more meaningful and impactful.
The point of the Keystones are that they should be strong and you want to go for them, but on the veteran that isn’t the case you need to commit too much points to get to them and you do not get rewarded for it, that is bad design.
I wasn’t saying that Ogryns should not get more talent’s and/or choices for their builds i was just trying to say that just because you have more “talents” it doesn’t mean that it’s better. Veteran’s seemingly has a lot of flexibility but the truth is that many talents are dead in the tree.
And i don’t want that to happen to a class that is very fun to play (the Ogryn)
I’d argue that there are worse noob traps in the game… Kill Zone, Catch a Breath, The Master’s Retribution come to mind
That is correct! Their favorite class is the pickme Zealot egobuff bootlicker sub genre
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