Like it’s such a mind-boggling design decision that it seems like a programming mistake or a design doc was read wrong.
No matter where you are in the light or heavy attack string (both or which are already kinda odd), and you shove, the followup click to your shove is ALWAYS a shield bash. Not only is this the only melee I can think of that has the exact same attack following a push, but it’s completely redundant.
The boon of shields is that you have plenty of stamina to shove whenever you want, staggering the crowd. When they’re staggered, that’s a perfect time to follow up with damaging attacks. I basically never need a shove… right after I’ve shoved.
Not to mention this odd duck has a shield bash both in the light AND heavy attack strings. Seriously, if you cut it out of the light string AND cut the followup shove, the Bret SnS would be a great sidegrade, if not slightly better than the Imperial SnS. It has the really nice overhead and thrust on the heavy strings to be better at anti-elite, and it makes sense that the career-specific weapon is slightly better than the generic variant.
As it stands, I never see anyone use this weapon outside of people who just bought Grail Knight and want to try it. Even if you don’t overhaul the basic attack strings, the follow-up shove needs to be cut. It’s so awkward, can’t be manipulated anywhere in the pattern, and completely worthless.
Excuse my wording, but it always is with a light attack. You’re doing push attacks and heavy attacks, both of which are SINGLE TARGET.
When you bash with any other shield, you can immediately do any light attack in the string and start to do damage to the horde. This shield won’t let you follow up on any targets but single.
I use it a lot, but @Sigmar has a point. It’s mostly single target light attacks which don’t really deal with armor, and some slower heavy attacks. The thing is most players are going to be mainly using the shield for stagger and protection from gunner/flame rats.
Also, most of the time, a GK player will use their damage dealing main weapon. If it’s X-Sword for single-target, then the standard Shield+Sword is better at cleaving crowds.
What I’d add is that the bash combo not only staggers, it does significant damage. This is how I utilize it. I like to use a damage dealing main weapon about 90% of the time, then I pull out the shield with the Opportunist trait and Power vs Skaven to stagger plague monks. It does decent damage while staggering most everything and clearing space. Any shield will do the trick though if all you need is stagger.
The Grail Knight’s Shield and Bret Sword doesn’t really get much use for it’s single-target attack combos. It’s still a fun weapon, but it’s almost pointless aside from bashing.
What I’ve done is made or obtained 5 of every red item for everyone (except elf). So I’ve made a dual-shield build for GK which I used just to enjoy using the shield, and it kinda forced me to use it more and enjoy it. Still, aside from a spamming push-attacks, it’s not super useful.
he said twice now that after a shove ALWAYS follows a bash, nothing about light or heavies or whatever you’re cooking up now, my response is simple
again, i find it harder to accidentally bash, than doing literally anything else.
If you’re talking about anything else than a bash, you’re already proving the point.
his statement regarding it having weird patterns that have cleave options locked behind stabs and other singletarget atacks, yeah i agree one reason i don’t use it, doesn’t feel good,
I’m not disagreeing with you either. I just think it’s more productive to note that the Bret-Shield is in an odd place. It’s among the few weapons in this game that disappoint. It’s fun, but doesn’t really serve much purpose on GK outside of stagger spam.
in a discussion you need to establish a common ground if everyone talks about different things theres no point to it.
íf you ask me that is way more productive than talking past each other.
After pushing (Hold RBM + press LBM) with Bretonnian Sword and Shield you can do these things:
Continue holding RBM = Hold block - after which a normal light attack or heavy attack can be done.
Continue holding RBM and LBM = Do a Push attack - which is a stab attack, after which combos work as expected
Release RBM and press/hold LBM = Do a Light/Charged attack - regardless of which will always result in a light attack shield bash (normally Light Attack 3). It’s impossible to do any other attack without Block Cancelling (situation 1) or push attacking (situation 2). This is different to every other weapon in the game, where after a push you can always choose to do Light Attack 1, Charged Attack 1 or push attack of the weapon.
A similar mechanic is present with elf’s glaive where after Charged Attack 1 you will always do Charged Attack 2 regardless of whether you press or hold LBM.
With every other weapon, you can release RBM (to stop blocking) when clicking LBM (to push); then either click or hold LBM to do a Light Attack 1 or Charged attack 1. With BSnS you need to continue holding RBM after clicking LBM if you want to follow up with Light Attack 1 or Charged Attack 1, otherwise, you do a shield bash (Light Attack 3).
Having to hold block after a push to do a Light 1 or Charged 1 is pretty awkward and I’d say that it’s very easy to shield bash when you don’t mean to with BSnS because it’s so different to others.
I don’t play either shield weapon almost at all and here are my attempts at executing the attack I actually want to do with both weapons. SnS is smooth and fast. With BSnS sometimes I push twice or shield bash. We may call it a skill issue, but considering that it’s different to every other weapon, I’d say it’s pretty justified to state that it’s easy to accidentally shield bash.
So, while it is true that it’s not always a shield bash after a push there are only two options: Push attack or a shield bash (light attack 3). With other weapons, there are three options: push attack, light attack 1 or charged attack 1.
Anime, my boy, you were being dishonest or deliberately obtuse by, conveiniently, leaving out the extra long window it takes to block cancel before the followup, something that no other weapon has to deal with to negate a worthless attack.
Here’s video of Light attack chain 1, 2, 3
then Heavy attack 1, 2, 3.
then the push attack
After each attack I manually shove then I click. Light or heavy click, this is what happens each time.
The ONLY way to get a non-bash with the Bret SnS after shoving is to push-attack, which is the single-target thrust.
ah already at ad hominem stage, nope i wasnt leaving anything out.
i almost dont play shields, certainly not bret shield, saw your post and was like no way..
tested it and again i found it quite hard to actually shieldbash. thats it..
I don’t think that’s an ad hominem. More of a team of endearment
Admittedly, you say don’t use the shields much. A push doesn’t “always” follow with a shield bash, but the way you showed it’s use in the video shows push-attacks and block cancelling.
As he said, if you follow up any push immediately with a heavy or light attack, it’s a always a light or heavy shield bash.
The point being the shield has little synergy in GKs kit because nobody’s likely to use it for single target. It’s mainly stagger spam
As in, we should figure out what the point of discussion is and I suppose it should be about the balance of the weapon. So, from some testing on base cataclysm (so far):
Having played and studied the weapon a little bit more it is actually pretty decent and I was surprised by a few of its properties:
It’s not ‘cumbersome’ like other shield weapons - 4 vs 2 effective dodges plus alright movement speed during attacks made it feel way more mobile in combat than other shields.
BSnS can create space in multiple directions faster. However, normal shields felt better when creating space in one direction.
The push → bash is very good and fast stagger, particularly useful if you get surrounded, because of how swift and spammable it is. In such situation, other shield weapons rely more on pushing because shield bash takes a moment. Combine it with the aforementioned mobility and it felt better than the alternatives at getting out of sticky situations.
You do need Virtue of the Joust (stamina recovery), but missing out on thp return with a shield weapon is fine and power buff is finicky, so not a big deal.
Surprisingly good elite killing - charged overhead HS + charged stab HS is enough to kill Stormvermin/Bestigor/Berserkers. If you miss the stab you still have light overhead in between for okay damage and you can always start your sequence with a shield bash for extra damage. I found that as long as the charged overhead headshots, just bodyshots will still get the job done quickly.
Not only is the damage pretty good but it also has some crazy good stagger with Virtue of Ideal (+24% power):
– Charged headshots stagger everything except for CW’s overhead and Monk combo
– Charged bodyshot Overhead is the same as above, while Stab can’t stagger Savage’s combo
So, you can easily stagger lock a single elite with your killing sequence, and when facing a big pack of them, the fast spam of push → bash staggers all of them and then you can pick which enemy attacks you dodge and which you stagger, and if there is too much stuff going on just spam push → bash in every direction.
From practical experience the (push → bash → charged overhead) / (push attack → charged stab) both feel very safe and effective for killing mass elites and elites in mixed hordes solo.
Very good stagger and fine damage made it feel good at killing elites in difficult situations.
Normal shields feel better for horde clear and BSnS feels pretty awful at that, although it does generate thp pretty well with push → bash.
For my tests, I’ve combined it with Mace and Sword - MnS for horde clear, BSnS for elites - and had a pretty well-rounded build that felt safe and still good at killing stuff. I will try it later with 1h sword.
Now, is it better than other GK builds? As an elf-mobilty enjoyer I definitely preferred it to other GK shield builds I’ve tried in the past.
But in comparison to the typical Exe + Sword/MnS? If I can rely on my team for special sniping (so the shield is not needed) and some frontlining (so that I have space for charged attacks with Exe) - Well, I haven’t tasted it like that yet, but my hunch tells me no. Ultimately, it seems safer, maybe better for solo, but lower DPS.
Also,
having played with it just a bit more, in practical experience accidental shield bashes almost didn’t happen (although maybe it’s because I just used the shield bash intentionally a lot), so you were pretty much right on that point.
Ultimately, I enjoyed its mobility (in comparison to other shields), stagger with both attacks and bash, easy and good damage overhead and general safety of the build. I will also test it on twitch a bit with some more competitive people soon and see how I do.
I use it almost exclusively for bashing. It’s not by accident; it’s because that’s what it’s great at: spamming bashes. It may be good vs elites, but realistically, when are you ever gonna use it for single target damage?
I find switching melee so easy, that the shield is mainly a stagger weapon, and occasionally protection from flame rats.
In cases where it’d be superior to the second weapon ^^
I used it in combination with Mace and Sword:
BSnS for armour and creating a lot of space when needed.
MnS for hordes, monsters and mass berserkers.
So I used it like Exe with worse damage but with ability to create space.
There are a lot of builds on GK and while this one feels alright in the vacuum, I’m not sure if it’s really worth it in comparison to other builds. I mean, BSnS did well good elites and I preferred it over MnS for armour, but is it really any better than all the other alternatives? Not sure.
I just checked out the armory, I kinda doubted the bret-shield did more damage than mace and sword. I’m shocked to find the Heavy, Light, Heavy combo actually does more damage.
The thing is, with offensive properties and traits on the Mace+Sword that I usually don’t put on a main-purpose stagger shield, the Mace+Sword already superior to most any other weapon Kruber being decent enough at single-target damage, and it looks like the margin is pretty low.
The Mace+Sword does just about everything really well, negating most needs for a shield with the stagger on light attacks 1 and 2. Then people usually take X-Sword with that to get massive single-target damage. The only small downside of mace and sword is it has slightly low single-target damage, and short reach but it’s still relatively good even at that.
That’s a pretty niche use for it. For me, I use it because I like the way it looks, but the Bret-shield is in a weird spot. It’s got a single-target attack combo, and bashes. The bashes are very quick, and that’s the main thing that sets it apart for me. I’d never pick it for a main main single-target damage weapon.
I agree with all of that. Even assuming BSnS is good at killing elites and maybe slightly better than MnS, it’s inferior to Exe or even 2h Hammer. So if I want a single target dmg weapon why not bring one of those two? Or even MnS with its superior horde clear and only slightly worse armour piercing.
The only case where I’d rather have BSnS than any other weapon is if I was solo against, say, 20 stormvermin, because while Exe may have higher DPS, it won’t be able to realise it because of no group stagger, slow attack speed and bad mobility. So significantly lower DPS, but much higher stagger BSnS will end up doing better.
But if I fight 20 stormvermin, an entire horde and a pack of plague monks, but I also have 3 (reliable) teammates next to me, I’d rather have Exe and MnS because I don’t really need the defensive boons of a shield weapon.
Stagger of MnS is enough and then it offers great horde clear, while Exe has superior armour DPS - why bother with a low dps shield?
Tbh, I doubt it even does better dps against armour than MnS on paper, it’s just that the 3 to 4-attack combo is enough to kill most elites and because those are high stagger attacks, it’s all very safe. And this safety combined with alright damage makes it into a decent anti-single target weapon in practice.
It’s by far the most unique thing it has to offer and, as I said, if I wanted to play GK with a shield, I think I’d prefer it to the regular shields.
I kind of wish there was an imperial shield and bastard sword combo that was functionally the same as the Bretonian Sword and Shield for the other Kruber careers. I feel like on say Foot Knight, the single target damage combined with bashes would have a lot to offer.
I’ve tried it out on Huntsman and Foot Knight in modded, and it was quite a lot fun. I do prefer it on GK for the quick bashes, but I can’t honestly say it’s more effective; it’s just my preference.
