Shield's again

While i think shields are viable for legend especially with the last buffs, i also think they are far from perfect.
Low mobility with low reach makes them still a pain to use for me. I think they are fine as long as you have enough support by your team. But as soon as things go south i always wish i had taken a different weapon.

I really think shields should have a mechanic that makes them unique and makes them play differently.
So here are a few suggestions.

  1. Everyone knows you can cancel attacks by blocking. some weapons attacks can be canceled whenever you want (one handed sword for example) others can only be canceld right at the start of the attack (two handed hammer). A soon as you cancel your attack it will end and won’t deal any damage. That completely makes sense of course. Shields could get the unique feature that you can start blocking during the attack and the attack still gets executed. That would allow you to use very small attack windows. Of course this needs to be desinged correctly. Else you could just immidiately block after clicking attack and you would be pretty much invulnerable during attacks. So it needs to be designed the following way:
  • If you block to early then the attack just gets canceled like with every other weapon.
  • If you block x amount of time after you click attack you will be able to attack and block at the same time.

This way there would be still enough windows during that you could get hit. At the same time shields would get a unique feature and skill requirement (not block canceling your attack to early).

  1. The low dodge distance of shields always gets me into a lot of trouble. Of course you could just increase the dodge distance but if all weapons get balanced that way, they sooner or later will all feel the same.
    The situation where the low dodge distance bothers me the most is against packmaster.
    Espeacially if you are already fighting against a few guys, you have to block and the shield blocks your vision i find it really hard to dodge packmaster and that already ruined a few runs for me. I only have this problem with shield’s. So a nice feauture would be if you could counter the grab by doing a shield push at the right time. That way it would still require skill to avoid the grab and your low dodge distance wouldn’t kill you. Additionaly you would get the advantage that you could avoid grabs even if you have no space to dodge.

  2. At last i would really like it if you could block warpfire.

Some traids or talents like increasing crit chance for every blocked strike would also be nice for shield users

What do you think about that?

3 Likes

Interesting proposals, at least. Hard to say anything about the exact execution, though, for balance or otherwise.

I do agree that shields are a bit lacking. They have a large push/block arc and strong pushes, but pay for that with lower damage and even lower dodge effectiveness. This, counter-intuitively, strengthens their offense and weakens defense, as mobility is nearly always the best defense and pushing is used offensively for control. Their block isn’t that much more effective than other weapons with comparable arcs (for now, Spear), and/or Stamina. The only thing is really that they can block Gunners’ fire. They kind of need something to enhance their blocking, and being able to block (or push away) a few additional attacks (flamethrowers, Troll bile’s direct hits, even grabs) could certainly help a bit. You also could tie those to the Parry timing (which, btw, apparently has some effect even without the Trait, even if it’s hardly noticeable). Also, being able to continue attacking while defending is certainly a property and advantage real-life shield combos have, but I think that would need at least somewhat significant animation reworks, so it might be a bit much to ask for now. Also see “why do I again toss the shield aside while attacking, and completely hide behind it when defending”; a complaint that’s quite justifiable in many (if not all relevant) games. I’ve seen at least one Youtube video on that one.

Oh, yeah. One idea that’s been tossed around before, even if I’m not completely certain how well it would play out: A taunt (probably for the Weapon Special button), to draw enemies’ attention from beyond your push range and do nothing else, simply to give the shields more of that defensive/control role they seem to be meant for. No need to be nowhere as effective as IB’s Impenetrable, just enough to get the attention of some enemies away from your struggling friends. (And frankly, to get more use for the Weapon Special, but that’s just my personal crusade.)

6 Likes

Giving them eternal guard would actually give them a good role.
Not taking dmg from block piercing attacks would be nice as well while still loosing all shields.

5 Likes

Well timed blocks should repel hookrats and bounce off Assassins. Make this a talent shield-bearers can choose if you like.

Shields should defend against block breaking attacks by preventing any damage but losing all stamina - Like @Haxorzist said, … - including the block breaking boss attacks.

I think bile and fire should behave how they do now though.

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Imho shielded weapons are the worst. Regardless some nonsense choices (Bardin has one shielded weapon against horde, and one against armor… Kruber not, and even sword and shield has less block angle), they do few damage in comparison with the weak advantages.

The low damage is ok, they are a defensive weapons, but I would like to see buffed their defense capacity, like:

  • push can taunt also biggest enemies like bosses and CW;
  • you can’t take damage through shield (usefull against bosses);
  • you can block flame and gatling rat;
  • you have a bigger window to reflect (pushing) packmasters and assassins;

You can’t give me low mobility, if I still need to avoid most of attacks instead of block them.

The foundations are wrong… I could also have an impenetrable and over powered shield, but if I can’t taunt enemies to protect my teammates, this will be useless.

p.s what has the last buff done?

In another thread, someone suggested shields increase aggro radius.
I think that would actually make them viable - it would not make them better, but it’d give them a role in the team.
By having the AI calculate a shield user as - maybe just a half meter or one distance unit or smth - closer to them than they actually are when calculating what to attack, the shield user would essentially have a constant, very weak taunt against non-bosses.
You could take the heat off teammates just by walking by.
Of course, you’d also attract hookrats more often. ^^

2 Likes

Thanks for all the replies.

Yeah thats true of course. The first feature im suggesting would be important to try out in a beta. But might be a bit much work without knowing if it actually works out as intended. But if it would work out as intended the feature would solve several problems at once.

  1. Every weapon can attack and defend at the same time right now, by dodging and attacking. Only that shields are really bad at this. So giving them their own way to attack and defend at the same time would solve that.
  2. Most high dps weapons with good cleave are much tankier than shields because of temp health. Thats just weird. Most weapons can hit trade very effectively while shields can not. So giving them a feature that allows them to use small attack windows without the need of hit trading would solve that too.

Of course we don’t know if temp health will stay like it is right now. So maybe balancing temp health before balancing single weapons might be the bether way to go. But even if the balancing changes, it still would be nice to get some unique gameplay mechanics for certain weapons.

@Haxorzist what is eternal guard exactly? I feel kinda stupid cause im the only one who is asking…

yeah as long as only one of my suggested features gets implemented im already very happy.
Being able to block boss attacks at the cost of all stanima sounds good too.

@souI23

Shield weapons that where bad against armor got armor piercing attacks, like mace and shield.

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Eternal Guard is WHC’s passive ability. It blocks all incoming frontal light attacks for no stamina cost.

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This is such a good idea! With opportunist, it should maybe even knock the kekmaster down.
Also, the idea that shields should prevent damage from block breaking attacks like certain boss attacks and warpfire would be a very nice addition.

2 Likes

I’d Like to see some general changes in the talent tree where the different weapons coincide with the talents like they do a bit on huntsman, where reload time only applies to handgun and weapon range split only applies to the bow.

I think S&S and krubers FK ultra would go very well in togehter as it makes sense that he could run into a wall of hordes, shield first and trip them over and then it would also make sense to pick holy ground. Running with halberd it makes no sense how he could have 100% dmg reduction or even trip them over.

Looking at the different weapons each career has would also make it easier to make a talent tree that makes sense instead of the somewhat randomness of it now. The talent trees would also be easier to expand

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I think every stronger buff (attack dmg/ attack speed / mobility) would make them broken, but i like the “specials” idea.

Here are my thoughts:

Add wood - shields to the game

Woodshields have:

  • a normal mobility,
  • 3,5 - 4 stamina, (depends on the weapon)
  • an 50% dmg-reduce vs gatlings
  • 150 degrees blockrange
  • and are a lil bit smaller than the iron - shields right now.

They should be available for:

  • the Huntsman (sword/mace with shield),
  • Ranger Veteran (axe/hammer with shield)
  • Zealot (flail with shield)

Btw flail should be zealot only and rapier WHC only… but that´s another thing. ^^

The attack animations and dmg. should be like the shields are already. Just the flail needs a lil bit of rework, because it doesn´t exist. ^^
And yes, i think the zealot should be able to play as tank - support too. (Don´t forget my idea, to share a his temp health, when he uses his ultimate, like the waystalker regen perk.)

So the next things are the iron - shields.:

Iron - shields should be like they´re now, but only available on the Footknight and the Iron-breaker.
Both of them get some tank-specials:

Footknight: He can block warpfire for the whole party with it, as long as he facetanks it and the party is behind him. He got a sick shield and sick armor, so he can take that!

Ironbreaker: He can´t be hooked by a hookrat as long as he blocks and the rat tries to snap him from the front. He “hides” behind´s his shield. It is as big as he is, so it can´t be possbible to get hooked!
That´s even the reason, why wood-shield´s should be smaller. The RV can´t do the same then. ^^

What bothers me most about shield+ weapon is that the shield doesn’t exist unless you RMB. It still covers a significant portion of the body.

At best, i’d like it to function something like this:

  • when the shield is not raised, blocking angle is reduces and switches to the left side of the character, with increased stamina cost since you’re not actively blocking. Around 90-120 degrees, starting from your aiming dot.
  • when raised it functions as normal, maybe with the attacking mechanic debito20091993 talked about or the taunt(make Bardin/ Kruber bash their shield with special key).

Alternatively, just some damage resistance when shield is equipped as a lazier solution but I’d say it should be at least 15% to be worth it I guess, maybe even 25% on the dawi due to his small stature.

I don’t like the idea simply for the fact that it takes control away from when and how I want to use my block stamina. Shields could, however, simply provide a passive 10% damage reduction.

That would be too simple. Shield´s can´t save you from behind or aoe-dmg.

But yeah maybe 10 or 15% dmg reduction at the 90 degrees @ballbats already mention. You already have problems to see that side, because of the shield. It would be ok.

That’s true. Shields and weapons can’t also save you from being hit from behind, no matter if you are holding them in front of your face or not. Shields are also not used in the way the game depicts it, just holding them up and letting anyone wail against them. Realism has little place in these considerations.

I know, but an overall dmg-reduction would a lil bit much, especially for the tanks that already hold them. An Ironbreaker is going to be unkillable. :smiley:
Something like that needs to be restricted.

Well yeah, some control is taken away but the alternative is getting hp damage and that’s what shields do, they protec.

I wouldn’t be in favour of that, either. I think giving the shield more unique utility would flesh it out more and giving it more of an identity beyond just being the one handed weapon with more block stamina, less mobility and a less favourable attack pattern.

The main problem is that a tank should defend his weak teammates (like ranged careers)… but, in this game, a shield can just defend the tank that holds it. But with IB or FK, I don’t need more protection… so every one will prefer weapon like Halberd or 2H hammer in order to do some damage to all.

Should simply should have more taunt power, it should work also against elite/bosses; and the enemies should rimain locked on him for at least 5 seconds, regardless how much damage they take from other players.

p.s also don’t take damage through block would be nice :stuck_out_tongue:

I am surprised that the Power Attack was not mentioned so far (unless I missed it). I think one of the biggest problems with Shields, is the Power Attack. On Kruber, it always hits with shield first. Second Power Attack is with the weapon

If I am using a Power Attack, it is because I am trying to deal with an Armored Enemy. Hitting it with my shield does nothing. I need to Power Attack with the weapon right away. If you were to remove the Power Attack on shield, so you can skip to the weapon, that would go a long way

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