Sword&Shield has 20% bigger push radius, around 10-20% faster attack speed, ~40% more damage cleave, has a very solid push-stab heavy-stab combo which can kill a Stormvermin on Legend in one combo and easy to hit headshots with, immediate push-bash combo and Linesman on all but one of its horde clearing attacks.
Mace&Shield has a 50% wider block (only block) angle, more than 3x stagger cleave and tank modifier.
Both weapons deal the exact same damage with light attacks, and sword&shield has better anti-armour and anti-elite DPS.
Looking at all of this, why on earth would I ever take mace&shield over sword&shield? S&S is a fair bit stronger at clearing hordes, nearly infinitely better and more comfortable at killing armoured enemies (with M&S your best option to kill armour with is literally spamming the push-attack over and over again, which feels bad, clunky and significantly slower and harder to get headshots with), more stagger cleave is pointless when you’ll be doing push-bashes to crowd control enemies, and the M&S can’t even get the push-bash combo, it has to do a push-attack-bash combo, which takes longer and leaves you more vulnerable for pokes. That and the BASH on the M&S is marginally slower for god knows what reason. M&S is quite a bit slower while dealing the EXACT same damage as S&S with it’s light attacks while also having less damage cleave, and it even has a smaller push radius. It has no good combos unlike S&S, worse at practically everything, even at the things it shares with S&S. It’s worse at killing and it’s a bit worse at crowd control and defense.
Shields are my favorite playstyle and I played them a lot. I can only fully agree with everything you said. Sword & Shield and Axe & Shield are nice and viable weapons, even if they’re definitely on the lower end of the power scale. Even so, they outclass Mace / Hammer & Shield in pretty much every way. They’re better at control as well as damage. I’d love to see Mace / Hammer & Shield reworked to be as good as the others, so I have another shield option to mess around with.
Slightly off topic: Even though I feel Sword / Axe & Shield are perfectly viable and capable of playing a niche but really useful role in a team, they simply are not very powerful and most of the times another option is better when you need to really tryhard. Since one handed Sword and one handed Axe are also underwhelming, I feel a buff to Sword (for Kruber) and Axe strikes for all these weapons could really increase weapon diversity in one easy swoop.
Ye… I agree with you in general and I agree about Sword and Axe too… They would need some love.
Mainly Krub’s 1h Sword… It could be a really nice and fun weapon. But, instead of just buff its damage, I would prefer a rework.
It should be a defensive/versatile weapon… But when you are surrounded you can’t do nothing, you can’t stagger enemies to escape (heavy combo is too slow to be used in that situation).
The push attack should have the same stagger as the heavy attack one.
P.s and maybe every 1H weapon (not the dual ones) should consume only 1stamina to push? It could be a nice option to compensate the very short range.
It’s better than Axe+Shield and Sword+Shield for both as it has way more Stagger with Cleave. It’s the best Shield Weapon for Cata/+ because of this. Once you run out of Stamina on SnS and AnS, you become helpless. With Mace+Shield you can always revert to lights, which have the same stagger as 1H Mace.
I even play this on RV with the Attack Speed Talent with no issues.
E.g. staggers Blackrats/Bestigors/Maulers with lights
The only downside to this Weapon for me is the amount of Attack Speed you need. Other than that I find it way more reliable than the other two, and the only build which really suffers to get the Attack Speed is IB, who can take more damage anyway, or just run an unlimited Stamina Axe+Shield build if you don’t mind doing less damage.
Notes on this build:
Haven’t tested to see if Crit Power/Block Cost and AS/Crit Power is better than running Power%, and haven’t checked to see if Mainstay works out better damage, but if I’m remembering correctly, Power% also increases Cleave and Stagger. The spam Crits you get from this build also give you more Cleave+ Stagger.
The important thing is the Attack Speed, everything else comes after.
This is the best Mace + Shield build I’ve found for any Career, and probably my favourite build in the game rn, especially when Tzeentch is on.
Hordes without Elites: Charged > Charged
Hordes with Elites: Push-Attack > Charged, sometimes reverting to Charged > Charged when you can for more damage
Chaos Warriors: Spam Push-Attack over and over
Single enemy: Push-Attack > Light (the Light Attack after the Push-Attack is fast enough and on a good enough angle to be worth doing almost every time)
Spamming Lights on no Elite Skaven Hordes is better than spam Staggering, unless you’re playing safe for your team
Oh, and on FK, IB, RV, Huntsman, you obviously swap the Charged > Charged for Push-Attack > Charged.
Block Cost + Crit on FK/HM too.
Block Cost + AS on IB, RV (depending on team mates - WHC/Merc with Strike Together)
With RV, you do Push-Attack > Charged > light > Charged, and keep chaining it.
Also HM Spear and Shield is a DPS Weapon, that’s better than the normal Spear, what’s up with that?
That with M/H&S you can stagger (= your job) also using the light combo is right… But imho it’s right too that end the stamina, mainly with FK and IB, is really rare. It could be useful with RV, but it’s too little as niche… Also because shotgun RV should run A&S to deal better vs armors.
A simple idea could be to give M/H&S the combo bash > push > bash.
In this way:
Axe: best vs armors, very simple to use;
Sword: the versatile one, but you have to use it correctly; fast pacing too;
Mace/Hammer: the best to stagger in every situation;
Completely pointless since your main source of stagger is from push-bashing. You don’t need stagger cleave on lights at all.
I literally NEVER run out of stamina with either FK or IB. Literally never.
You’re not going to be staggering any more than 2 maulers with it, in which case the crowd control isn’t even needed. You’re not going to be able to crowd control large groups of 20+ raiders, 6 maulers and 2 Chaos Warriors with your light attacks. It’s completely pointless.
You can only hit one at a time. And why would you stagger them with lights when you can do it with a push and bash? And hit an infinite amount of them?
The only downside is that it’s completely inferior to either A&S or S&S.
That’s great, I use off-meta weapons all the time. But how exactly is in better than the other shield option is any way?
Any sizeable elite like ONE CW or ONE mauler will stop your first swing, which leaves you vulnerable for a second.
I really don’t see how mace/hammer&shield are any better than their contemporaries.
Light attacks, which are faster and have more damage cleave, mixed in with push bashes. I thought that was kind of obvious.
Or you could just take stamina recovery on trinket and never have to worry about it. Even getting blocked into a spot you’ll be fine.
Marginally better for crowd control. That and again, stamina is rarely an issue with shields.
Just because you get use out of it, doesn’t mean it’s not worse.
You’re giving up Opportunist?
Higher attack speed and 40% more damage cleave = better horde clearing and at least equal crowd control by mixing in push bashes.
Honestly the first time I’ve ever heard this term get used. I don’t get it myself, just get stamina recovery and don’t literally spam just pushes and you’re fine.
Epic anti-armour damage from the M&S I take it?
In my quote I specifically mention that you only hit one enemy. Staggering one enemy doesn’t give a lot of tHP except with cleave, which isn’t ‘a lot’
It’s not the exact same. You incorporate a push-attack into it. It’s slower and leaves you more vulnerable. Sure it’s fine if you have Swift Slaying, but then that means you have Swift Slaying on a shield.
How is it any worse than s&s lights? It would be better with on cleave, and stagger you’ll get from push bash.
Again, why do lights when you can just do push bashes, and I never personally ever run out of stamina.
Axe has infinitely better anti-armour damage and has good cleave with L1->H2 combo, or push-bash-heavy.
Just push. And bash. There’s your safety.
Or you can do pushstab-heavystab with s&s for significantly more anti-elite damage and easier to get headshots. The push attack on the mace is like half the DPS.
S&S has lights that cleave more and are faster. You can just push-bash if CC is needed.
Sure, it can do what other shield weapons can, but just slightly worse, while also having little of any other upsides.
Not seeing it.
Sure, it can do the same thing, but worse.
I’m just not seeing it. You’re not going to convince me, so if you want to stop it with me right here you can. The big thing with M&S is that it’s absolutely pitiful at killing armour. Sure, it does the same thing but a bit worse with crowd control, and the light attacks aren’t terrible (except that they are again, just worse). Both S&S and A&S kill armour significantly better, while also having a bigger push radius, and either better horde clearing, or increased anti-armour.
I will say though, that Mercenary build looks fun.
Then why did try to imply that all you do with Shields is Stagger as an argument against Mace and Shield?
Clearly if you need to Light to do damage, having more Stagger than SnS and Cleave than AnS is no downside. Survivability is important regardless of the situation.
I do, and there’s still situations where you run low on Stamina. I run double Block Cost, because I know I have the other CC the Mace can use to make up for it.
Yep better for CC, and yeah, because you can pool Stamina.
Just because you can’t get use of it, doesn’t mean it’s not better.
Yes. AS is better as a survival stat because it not only increases your damage output (and stagger), but also speeds up THP generation. Faster Attacks also = less of a gap to get hit in. If you’re not running full AS with Mace and Shield that’s your problem.
Then that’s fine, but I value CC from Shield Weapons more than the actual damage output, since it’s not amazing from any of them. Better to play to your strengths.
If you’re playing IB/FK I guess.
Decent, and good CC at the same time, as the Anti-Armour Attack is a Push-Attack, which also has Mace Stagger.
Thanks for outlining the framework from which I’m allowed to make points. Especially when we’re making talking about such huge issues as fighting a single enemy.
The Lights have more inherent Stagger and therefore benefit more from the Stagger THP Talent.
End of thread. I don’t have a problem using SS and AS stacking, the same as you don’t have a problem with never running out of Stamina. Just spam push faster.
It’s not. It’s better if you’re running Stagger THP, because the Mace does more Stagger. Multiple hit is worse for Shield Weapons because it’s absolutely ridiculous from the Charged Slam, which is how you maintain while being so immobile compared to most other Weapons.
Both are fine. If you land headshots with Mace and Shield Push-Attack it does decent damage, and CC, and happens faster than having to do a Light first, or a Slam first. Unless I’m on IB, I wouldn’t give up the faster, more Cleave more CC Attacks though.
It’s not really why I play it. My DPS are good enough to clear everything quickly while I CC and Peel them. I play heavy safe CC to make space for them.
I value CC more. I don’t play for my own damage. That’s the role of M+S.
Other than more CC, Cleave and THP generation than Axe.
Other than more CC, and THP Generation than Sword.
But yeah, I think we’ll agree to disagree. It’s just a Weapon I see a lot of people hating on, even though I find it pretty damn good. 1H Mace is one of my favourite Weapons, so M+S ended up being my favourite Shield one, even though it took a bit of learning and building to make it work, but I promise if you play it with AS and SS you’ll enjoy it.
I was planning on making a Frontlining Guide video soon, so I’ll put some in that. All of these IBs that run away, in certain situations, and do more harm than good. smdh
The reasons I keep performing worse with M/H&S compared to S/A&S, is that it’s just better in both control as well as damage:
The most important difference between the shield weapons. The combo Push-Bash is just far superior to any combo M/H&S can do. By far. With Opportunist you can even reasonably control a horde mixed with Chaos Warriors and Plague Monks. It lets you take initiative and clear space like absolutely no combo on M/H&S ever could. It’s faster and the staggering power is glorious. It generates THP on Stagger like nothing else in this game. Just the fact that the first Power Attack is the shield bash alone makes these weapons better for control and safety, and the bash is faster than that of M/H&S as well!
And even though purely the lights on M/H are better for horde fighting than purely the lights of S&A, both S&A have the combo Light1-Heavy to chain infinitely which easily matches the lights of M/H in terms of stagger and damage.
Even though the lights on M/H indeed have better damage-cleave than the lights of S&A, that’s not really a good benefit because nobody is using just lights on S&A (instead they just do L1-H). The sweeping power attack on M/A on demand (because it’s the first in the combo) is pretty decent for cleave-damaging hordes, true, but both S&A have relatively easy access to a sweep with the same damage profile that can also be chained, so that’s not a noteworthy advantage either.
And with regards to single target damage: I just can never make M/S do better than S and especially A. Having to push attack is a downside, and with S at least you can follow it up with a heavy stab. With A just spamming lights for single target damage is functional, and light-light-heavy(=power chop) starts a combo where you can chain light-power chop ad infinitum for very respectable damage.
And with regards to classes that are not FK or IB using shields: That’s fair. However, I still feel even those are better off using S or A instead of M/H, even if their stamina is lesser. Especially since that lesser stamina really hampers their single target damage on M/H as well…
I did not make this post to be contentious. It’s just that I can personally never seem to make M/H&S work as well as the others, and I’ve tried. But I’d like to be proven wrong. Then I’d have more options to play! Would you happen to have a recorded game, or know of one, to show me how you do it?
I still don’t get it. S&S and A&S HAVE BETTER CC. You have the IMMEDIATE push-bash combo with both of them, and they’re a bit faster with a bigger push radius. You CAN’T crowd control a group of 6 maulers, 20+raiders, 6 Stormvermin, 10 clanrat shields and 2 Chaos Warriors with your LIGHT ATTACKS, you’re not going to be using them, at least what I would do is do the push-bash combo. It hits an infinite amount of enemies, staggers them as much as a shield weapon possibly can and gives you loads of tHP. And if it’s a scenario where there’s just 2 or 3 Stormvermin, then it’s not really a scenario where crowd control is even needed. And I really do mean it, I’ve NEVER had an issue with running out of stamina with shields on any class, RV or IB or FK. I just don’t understand what’s the point of having stagger on your light attacks, when it’s completely not needed? I don’t get it. I know I’m just beating some meat here at this point (what?) but I just don’t understand.
I didn’t? I mentioned plenty of other things, like better horde clear and better anti-elite damage while having better CC as well with push-bash.
No, that’s what I said what YOU said in your quote. I’m not the one talking about crowd controlling single enemies.
Or you can just push-bash for the tHP and do more stagger while mixing in light attacks or push stab-heavy stab combos and do both more damage and crowd control.
Except that without Opportunist I’m like 90% sure you can’t push stagger maulers or Stormvermin from their overheads, or CW’s from some of their attacks.
Not good enough of a reason for me.
I state that S&S and A&S have both better control and damage than M&S.
Mace&Shield from the beginning should have had its First Heavy attack be a shield bash. Why would I go for a swing attack that deals minimal damage and no armor damage, over the bash that guarantees a stun on everything within view and deals some damage to boot? Being able to bash immediately is such a strong advantage of having a shield. I use it as a stagger and aggro drawing weapon. The Mace&Shield just can’t compete with the Axe or Sword when it has its heavy attacks switched backwards.