What's the point of grim and tomes?

besides making the game more difficult by taking up slots and lowering your life, shouldn’t completing a map with full grim and tomes give you better loot?!

it’s not, and it’s annoying. late game yellow loot is useless because i’m farming for cosmetics and reds to mill for a specific weapon. 513 hours and i still haven’t gotten a red halberd, i got the skin for a Bogenhafen halberd but without the red stats It’s useless.

the loot system and RNG is really frustrating to deal with. I Hate re-rolling for 5% AS and 5% Crit on the same weapon, it takes ages to re-roll the right stats, wasted time i could be spending grinding for chests.

after 500+ hours i should have a full red build on my mains Saltz and Kruber (i have had on both), but because the red weapons i got for Kruber Isn’t the ones i want i re-roll them and craft a red. which is nice they made that a possibility but with the amount of reds that drop in V2 it’s so expensive and not really worth it. I’ve gotten 2 red drops after WoM update and at this point It’s the only reason i have to play the game besides funfactor.

have Fatshark talked about their plans with the loot system at all? or their future plans with V2?


It does give better loot. Statistically emperor vaults give reds more often than emperor chests/general vaults. Just because you haven’t gotten a specific red, doesn’t mean the system is flawed. I do think the loot system could be better, but at least now you can scrap extra reds to craft a red you actually want.


It sure as frick don’t feel like it. I’m confident that most of my reds come from low tier chests. I have no proof to back this up so you will have to take me on my word there.

It’s not even that i don’t get a specific red that’s annoying me, It’s the low red drop rate and the slot machine approach to reds and cosmetics that most frustrating. I got over 800 yellow dust sitting in my inventory, if we could spend 100 yellow dust to craft a red i would be fine with that. or even 500.

why do i have to rely on a system that randomizes every drop there is.
because of fatsharks experimentation and ambivalence towards loot boxes and microtransactions.

you got to pay the bills, but don’t bleed us dry to please your shareholders. i wouldn’t mind paying for cosmetics if done right. i wouldn’t only want to pay for skins because that takes away from actually earning a skin.

Even though those black recolors of the base skins is just that, recolors, i had to meet certain parameters to obtain it that didn’t just require me to open my wallet. (although i would like to see some actual new skins for end game rewards, not just recolors, for both weapons and outfits) so if Fatshark could find a middle way that didn’t remove earned skins and glowing weapons behind an all new fancy fatshark launcher. i would be optimistic and shell out cash when i have excess income to support a game i love.

the loot system is flawed, very much so. If we set the same standards to the loot system as vermintide 2’s tight gameplay, the loot system pales as a bad joke.

I don’t want to sound condescending, but it’s just all about numbers, something that is more likely to drop reds won’t necessarily drop the most reds for you. The more boxes you open, the more likely you are to get a red drop rate close to the “actual” red drop rate, but this would have to be like thousands or hundreds of thousands of boxes. You may just be unlucky with good boxes and lucky with bad boxes.


Well, I got Thundercrack 5 times and Judge’s mark 4 times, while I still don’t have the other red illusion for red pistols. That’s the worst psrt of the system. Playing Bardin I got 5 identical 1h hammers. And so on and so on.
Getting the red weapon you really need is 1 thing, but man, getting red illusions without Bogenhafen is just sad, it takes so much time…
And around 50% of these red illusion are just bad/horrible grade. F.e. truthsnare rapier that comes with patchwork pistol :frowning:

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What you’re describing is kind of the exact issue with full randomness and probability - it isn’t anyone’s friend. Add the human mind’s tendency to accentuate the negative, and you get a nasty feedback loop.

Tomes and Grimoires are there both to adjust the game’s difficulty (though when you play QP with randoms, they hardly ever work in that aspect), and to increase loot quality. The higher-level loot chests do have a (quite significantly) better chance for Veteran items, but they also give a larger proportion of Exotics. The latter isn’t likely to matter that much after a while. But as there isn’t any weighting towards missing items, once you get more than half of a certain character’s weapons in Red, it gets increasingly improbable to get the last ones - unless you just keep playing, scrap what you don’t need and use the dust to upgrade the missing ones.

Also, when talking about probability, volume can make up for raw probability. If you’ve gotten a load of the lower-quality Vaults, and less if the higher-quality ones, it’s pretty easy to end up getting more valuables out of the low ones. If one Vault gives a certain probability, and another gives double that but you gain half the amount of them, the expected output is the same. Again, add some psychology here, and it’s easy to draw the conclusion that the lower ones give you better chances. It’s always possible that you actually have found a proportionally bigger amount of your Reds from the lower ones (extremes do happen even when they’re improbable), but it’s unlikely.

Don’t take me wrong, I do think the loot system is faulty and/or annoying, both in its full randomness and otherwise, but the books and chest quality isn’t the problematic part. The problems, from my point of view and others’, have been discussed quite a lot before, so I won’t go there now.


I’ve posted the loot statistics on here many times which we got by data mining. I’m on my phone though, I can repost them later.

Basically, red drop rates for legend vaults are as follows

Emperors Vault = 22%
Generals = 18%

The lowest legend vault is around 9% or something. Which is still higher than a Champion difficulty Emperors chest. So you’re better off doing no book runs on Legend rather than full book runs on Champ.

I really wish there was a way to trade items. I think I’m only missing the dwarf great axe and have all others, sitting on like 120 red dust and that’s with Crafting all the DLC weapons from both and some emergency crafts i did to test new builds…


Thanks to the magic of mathematics I recieved more red items from low quality chests than higher quality chests.

I for one hope V3 will have little to NONE RNG influence on your loot. I rather know how much resources I need to gather to make a specific quality weapon with specific stats than get the present system again.


This is why RNG by itself makes for a terrible loot system.

IMO red dust was a step in the right direction, but on its own it won’t make a difference unless you’re already swimming in reds. Also trading 5 reds for 1 illusionless red is exceptionally miserly, but this issue could be alleviated by the following suggestion.

Personally I think we should be able to convert orange dust to red dust. Even 100 orange dust to 1 red dust, which surely nobody could call generous, would make a pretty significant difference. Firstly, you no longer resent all the otherwise useless orange gear you get thrown at you en mass in the higher difficulties. Secondly it allows people not up to legend yet to progress at a fairly steady pace towards getting a red or two to ease the transition to Legend. Thirdly, it functions similarly to quests and contacts, in that you have clear, observable progress to your next red. You’re not just crossing your fingers every box with no idea when your next red might come.

I can’t personally think of a single issue this would cause, but if I’m missing something here, someone please correct me.


Merch vault:
680 chests
60 reds
8.8% chance of a red

Solider vault:
679 chests
84 reds
12.4% chance of a red

General vault:
920 chests
160 reds
17.4% chance of a red

Emperor vault:
449 chests
99 reds
22% chance of a red


That’s from the reddit post. I’ve done a similar test and opened groups of 100 of each vault at a time and came to nearly the exact same numbers. I actually got a 24% drop rate for Emperors. Like the OP, I didn’t have enough Peasant vaults to get a correct number either.


Better chests give better loot though, but better is defined by classes rather than a specific item.

So you opened a shitton of chests but didnt get that 1 red you actually wanted? Well that´s normal, best you can do is roll until you get enough duplicate ones to turn into dust to make a red even if it lacks the blue glow illusion.

And as @SmokerT69 posterd, there are plenty of people who have experimented to find out drop chances for reds, myself included too, and i got the same deal there.


Now that we’re talking on the topic of rewards anyways, I’d like to repeat an opinion I advocated before. I feel weapon power should be treated the same way as player power level; Just a general increase attained by simply using the weapon for a while. Weapon power (or rather hero power in general) really doesn’t work that well in this game. This is not an RPG or something. The more power you aquired, the less you’d actually need it, because of the given in how much you can handle high difficulty content in Vermintide is about player skill over everything else. It’s the exact opposite compared to, say, Diablo. In that game your gear determines for the biggest part how high of a difficulty level you can handle, with player skill being a distant second. (Skill matters, yes, but no matter how good the player is, without the right power level on your gear you won’t do higher Rifts. It’s mathematically impossible from an early point on.) In Vermintide, the absolutely best players can still do high difficulty content even with the lowest quality gear. And right now the best way to aquire high power level gear, is having the skill to handle higher difficulty content and then you paradoxically don’t need the highest power level gear as much anymore. And the players that could use high powered gear the most (to ease into higher difficulties) have no good way of getting it. It feels like the system is completely backwards…

I don’t know if there is hope for this to fundamentally change in Vermintide 2. The changes FS is making and the system they implemented in Weaves give some hope. But if I had to imagine my perfect system it would be something along the lines of the following:

Weapon power is attained by using the weapon in missions. Make it pretty much like the Athanor, that’d be great. The incentive to do higher difficulty content (apart from the fun of the gameplay which is Vermintide’s main draw anyways) is in attaining illusions. A succesfull run awards a currency (Dust or whatever), which can be used to buy Weapon Illusions and other cosmetics. Weapon Illusions can only be bought for Weapons you reached a certain level with. Tomes and Grims award more currency. Higher difficulty awards more currency. A failed run could also reward a reduced amount of currency. Some Weapon illusions can only be attained from weapon specific challenges, that require a feat of skill or a milestone, that means a little more than just “play the game often”. Like “Finish all maps on Legend with the weapon.”, “Headshot a Monster 10 times in a single fight with the Longbow.”, “Shield bash an Assassin leaping at you out of the air.”, and so on. I’m sure FS could come up with cool ideas.

Then we have a system where weapon power is never a hindering factor in progression, rewards feel like something you can actually work towards properly, and you’re not frustrated by RNG. This game just does not fit RNG with regards to weapon power (in the sense of level and in the form of properties) and cosmetic awards. It’s not Diablo.


I’d say a full set of three tomes and two grims should be a guaranteed emperor chest. It does give better loot regardless or at the very least the potential for better loot.
I’m personally annoyed by how it is even possible to not get an emperors chest when you hit the finishing line with 3t/2g/2d. That’s honestly bull****, but not something I can’t handle.
I’ve still managed to get every red item in the game within 600 hours

I’d add a couple of things to this great post:

  1. The weapon/hero power saturates at 650 (ex 600) and this is essential in order for players with vastly different amount of time spent in game to still be able to perform comparably. You haven’t mention that hero power is dependent on the level too, so there is another way to up the power besides attaining better loot - leveling up. So this whole power thing looks more like a downscaling - a discouraging factor for the inexperienced players so they have at least some incentive to stay on lower difficulties for a while. Once you reach the level cap, there is no distinction between players with 100h in game and players with 1000h in game. Also there are a whole lot of players with high-level high-power characters who can’t play worth a dime.
    In my opinion, the power system is useless pretty much for anything besides channeling low skill players into proper difficulty games which could be done by other means.
    However, hero power is also a unifying multiplier for applying weapon effects, so this is why I think FS chosen to stick with it (showing it on screen etc. ) even after you’ve “proven” to the game that you’re worthy enough to play Legend.
  1. I’d say that if missions had finer-grained objectives, you could still be able to get decent rewards depending on how you proceeded through the run even if it ultimately failed.
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Yeah, I feel the whole concept of Hero Power doesn’t really work in a game like Vermintide. The idea of attaining abilities while leveling serves as an extended tutorial of sorts at least, and there is something to be said for that. But the stat Hero Power in the end only hampers balance, is actually detrimental for easing into the next difficulties, and creates inconsistencies. It solely serves as a means of invalidating loot that would otherwise have been good…

I think that’s why FS introduced it actually. I remember them writing about it around the release of V2. They wanted a solution for the problem that in V1 a player could obtain an orange weapon reasonably fast, and thus skip the whole weapon progression altogether. With Hero Power you need to switch weapons during the progression, even if you lucked into a well rolled orange early on. It was a good thought, and the system works well during the progression phase, but it ends up being absolutely frustrating once you’re past that, together with the problems I summed up in the earlier post.

That’s why I think a system like the Athanor for item progression (in the power sense) would have been better instead: You can’t skip it and it is consistent (thus way less frustrating). If Hero Power was scrapped altogether it would, in my opinion, only benefit this type of game as well. Way easier to balance gameplay, and it places the emphasis squarely on player skill as befits this game best. That’s not going to happen in V2, I know, but maybe for V3 in the far, far future.

Another easily implemented anti-frustration measure could be to have weapons only ever roll at 300 Power once you reached that. Then there’s a not a chance your weapon reward is made worse by RNG. Have I mentioned before how I think RNG doesn’t fit this game? I might have done that once or twice…


In that other game with dwarves and hordes that we won’t name, your career level just determines available tiers of unlocks for your weapons and character and I imagine you could just do something similar for Vermintide. If you keep the damage on the weapon the same from zero to full(barring very small upgrades should they exist, perhaps even at a cost so it’s an actual decision), you remove the need for colored equipment tiers in the first place, and the upgrades are purely for playstyle purposes. It could make balancing the various difficulties easier, too, because making the game harder just requires small tweaks instead of big health increases and the like.

Purchasing upgrades(using a currency you get just from playing the game) unlocks cosmetics for the weapon in question, and just playing the game to get level-ups would unlock cosmetics to purchase for the character itself. At some point you run out of stuff to buy but ideally you aren’t playing the game just to unlock stuff. It’s okay to let someone who plays a lot have all the things he or she wants. They’ve done their time.

Also, don’t tie rewards to difficulty. An achievement or two, sure, maybe even keep decorations if you care about that - but not stuff related to the core of the game. People that want challenge can have it, and the people who just want to play for cosmetics and stuff can still get them. It really is that simple.

This is a little off-topic, but with that game-not-named being low poly and still looking pretty much amazing, it makes me wonder what could have been with Vermintide if they’d elected to take their hundred or so employees and made something a little less taxing as well. Maps probably wouldn’t take them an alleged 8 or 9 months, certainly, and they probably could have saved some coin for other things. Sometimes less is more, y’know?

If DLC weapons dropped from Loot Chests ( after you unlocked them via Okris challenge) or potential they would give money to use in future Lohner Emporium update.

Then it makes sense to get them, but now after so many hours. Quite pointless

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