I wouldn’t say its have better control than rapier, rapier have half shield cost for pushes and better block cost, and its way way faster than bill hook. You will have in 9 out of 10 situations better cc with rapier than billhook
1 Like
Nah. Push block angle is much lower. Push-stab isn’t really part of the attack pattern. rapier has extremely low stagger strength. It’s really not even close. By your logic, Dual Daggers would have good CC. It has half stam cost and it’s way faster than Bill Hook or Rapier.
2 Likes
It can also stop Chaos Warriors in overheads. Even Shields can’t do that.
2 Likes
I dont get why FS thinks 99 dodges is a good idea. After nerfing SnD (which obviously was the problem for em)
What weapons left with it? Elven sword (LUL) and billhook?
brace of pistols & elven axe
Its have same block angle but rapier have better block cost (x0,3 front instead of x0,5 standard like billhook)
Dual daggers have lower block angle(40 instead of 90) and they dont have any real cleave
Rapier have 5,66 stagger cleave same as falchion
And stagger strenght well billhook outside of special attack can’t stagger armoreds so its not that different
Oh and rapier have 25% dodge bonus instead of 10, and 99 vs 6, I prefer that dodge bonus with 6 (that 6 can be equal to 99 you dont have situations that you need more than 6 effective dodges)
2 Likes
Yeah Bill Hook is a little more difficult to use than Rapier until you get the hang of it. I could see why you prefer Rapier. However, saying it has better control is incorrect. Saying it does more damage is incorrect. It does have better mobility. 6x25 > 99x10 imo.
1 Like
Sure slower weapon with finnicky attack pattern is better at control. Yeah it does have better dps but i didn’t said anything about that. On trash with flense its have very similar amount of hits to kill stuff so faster weapon do better job at it.
Its have higher reach but its not spear (in term of reach) with its absurd stagger power that can sweep enemies from you.
Saying its better at CC is outright lie, in bad situation you can’t control enemies with it because your horizontal attacks are l2 and slow, rapier have half a push cost and better cost block with fast attack you still can get out of very bad situations with it with some real chances.
I’m ok with this weapon being way different better at single target dps etc
I don’t like finnicky patterns that work against you but billhook special have such potential that I see why ppl think its op, but outside of it its quite mediocree weapon
Perhaps it’s hard for you to tell who is CC’ing in team play. Try some true solo and the difference in control becomes very clear.
Go to 8:39. With rapier, I would have been able to kill the horde spamming dodge, but I could not have controlled it. Rapier is essentially a single-target weapon against Chaos. Also, with Cast Away, WHC has even better control than Zealot.
1 Like
I wouldn’t have any problem controling something like that with rapier I don’t get what are you trying to say here 
Is the Billhook the highest dps melee weapon Saltz has for elites on WHC?
The third rapier light can hit two heads, which is not as good as the Billhook combo you mentioned but still useful.
The rapier light can on certain mobs. It doesn’t cleave all the infantry mobs, though. And the highest melee dps is dependent on your headshot ratio. On armor, Bill Hook, A+F, and Rapier are all very similar dps. On Monsters and infantry, Bill Hook is considerably better.
2 Likes
Post a video.
2 Likes
How does one find out their ratio of headshots to bodyshots? Which weapon would give the highest melee dps with 100% headshots and no bodyshots (for the sake of the discussion).
Afaik the Rapier can cleave through a Gor, so it is only Marauders that stop it. The crit damage seems to higher on the rapier. Is Killing Shot crit fishing for elites more efficient on the Billhook or the Rapier?
Sorry for the excess questions.
I don’t get the point… Is someone saying that Rapier is overshadowed by Billhook?
Rapier is much much much better as defensive weapon… Higher dodge bonus, push uses 1 stamina, higher BCR, “easier” combo… And 6 dodges are pretty enough. To not talk about the great synergy with headshots.
Billhook is without doubts very strong… But nothing over Power like someone says, it has pro and cons… Rather it should be an example and Fatshark should balance weapons around it. Maybe we would have less dull weapons.
When someone wants nerf the good weapons I become very sad… I’m sure (a part of the) community can ruin this game.
Half stam cost on pushes but a “light” push. Is there a guide on push strength for weapons anywhere? That may need to be created.
This is basically impossible outside of recording a game of yourself and going back to watch it, keeping in mind that you are cleaving multiple enemies with many weapons. Also keeping in mind that the primary target is worth more than secondary targets.
Highest armor dps with 100% headshots was either Rapier full charge w/ perfect timing or Bill Hook heavy spam. I honestly can’t remember which. A+F gets better as you reduce headshot ratio, though. Also, spamming full charge rapier is pretty tough in front of mixed hordes/multiple elites. It’s like using a pick axe with no stagger power.
- I haven’t really played regular cata in a long time, so I don’t remember all the numbers for mass. My group mostly plays Cata 3 in modded realm where almost all weapons are single target if they don’t have linesman. I was talking about stagger cleave though which is only 5.66 on rapier. That’s pretty small as far as most infantry units go.
- As far as crit-fishing goes, it really depends on the situation. Bill Hook has some very strong advantages for mixed elites just because the push-stab L2 combo gives very consistent angles for head-shotting. It also comes has a ton of range and a push combo which allows you to control hordes while headshotting elites that may be standing behind a row of infantry. It also cleaves far more so if you hit a mob or two before connecting the headshot on armor, it will still kill the armored target. Mainly, it has enough cleave and a proper angle to reliably headshot multiple targets in one swing. For singular elites, Rapier probably can fish kills faster because it has a faster attack pattern, but in that case, you will be using charged attacks on both weapons rather than fishing for headshot kills.
2 Likes
I see where you are coming from now. I would like to add however that the Rapier is superior for dealing with and killing groups of massed elites quickly and safely, with very little down time between kills and attacks. At the very least it is better for soloing 100+ elites.
To be fair though, that extreme scenario is also one of the few situations where riposte is more effective at killing elites than Flense or Deathknell, so it is a bit of a niche positive.
Riposte Rapier also gives better monster damage (when you have aggro/solo) vs all monsters except for the Stormfiend and Troll (it still will when you have your back to a wall, same for the Troll, whom WHC’s temp hp gain from crits allow him to also riposte hit-trade with anyway, on normal cata at least).
I am not arguing that the Rapier is as good as the Billhook. In fact, I would say that it is a similar case to the 20% extra dmg on crit vs 50% headshot power talents on Huntsmen. The Billhook, unlike the Rapier, still does decent bodyshot damage relatively speaking (because of the heavy slam), which makes it require less precision while still doing almost as much single target damage overall. Honestly, I think it may be an example of power creep. Just so versatile/high averages.
Special-Attack > H2
Special-Attack Crits on heads still proc WHC 1 shot
As for CC, it’s not even comparable. Billhook can stop Chaos Warrior overheads (the only other thing that can do this is Sienna’s Charged headshots with Flail), and CC Berserkers. If you have someone with decent awareness who actually acknowledges their teammates existances, this Weapon just becomes a peeling/damage machine.
You can also CC 3 Chaos Warriors at the same time. Probably more if you have the Attack Speed, but knowing you have this tool, and your teammates DPSing smaller enemies while you do it, means you can survive some really silly situations that you couldn’t with Shields.
Dodging backwards while spamming L1 > cancel, can make you almost invincible if you’re kiting Elites. Also use it for landing random safe damage with Kruber’s Spear too.
I swear the only downside to this Weapon is that sometimes the Special Attack drags enemies slightly closer than you’d like.
2 Likes
Charge 1 attack of Sienna’s Flaming Flail can do it as well (at least on Unchained) and with the right rhythm, you can CC 2 Chaos Warriors at the same time. Not as good as the Billhook but there are other weapons which can stunlock CW out of overhead.
There is no need to think. Billhook is power creep, same as Axe & Falchion. Those weapons are just overly strong and are in dire need of a tone down together with some other weapons, for the sake of gameplay and having actually interesting weapons instead of dull “can-do-everything”. If there exists honestly people who consider such weapons solid or balanced it only shows how far power creep has infiltrated certain parts of the game already or how poor said people’s understanding of game design is.
3 Likes