What should be buffed, what should be nerfed - let's try making a liste while staying "objective"

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide General Discussion
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“Simple” fixes to balancing problems. Simple because I dont think we need another overhaul before fixing the most glaring issues by tweaking numbers.
Here are my suggestions, what are yours?

Arbites:

Lone Wolf talent is too strong. In my opinion especially with the Shock Mine regen.
My suggestion: Leave the talent as is, but without Blitz regeneration.

Arbites Shock Maul: Very very powerful weapon overall.
My suggestion: Tune his normal attacks down heavily

Castigator stance: Godmode on a button press
My suggestion: Reduce damage reduction to 50% (maybe just maybe increase duration to 15s in return)

Exterminator Shotgun: Can do everything while it should be a close quarter burst damage beast focusing on single targets / CC
My suggestion: Increase spread and damage fall off. It should not be able to hipfire snipe anything.

Veteran
My boi needs some buffs and nerfs here and there.

Voice Of Command: Add 33% cooldown to Golden Toughness modifier similar to revive modifier.

Tax nodes: The first tax node row has to go away and be replaced with a useful passive. (e.g. “Flak Vest” + 15 Toughness).

I think his talent tree would actually be fine if you had 2 points to spend more freely. No matter what you do, you end up having a compromise.

Demolition Team: Needs a cooldown.

Plasma Gun. Nerf LMB, focus on charged shot. Make it a high risk high reward weapon.

Psyker

Inferno staff needs to have higher peril generation. So does Smite.
Edit: like alot more peril so it cannot be spammed at high peril levels without much risk, or maybe make it an exponential curve. The more peril you have, the more peril you generate. Tenfold the now basically non existent threat of blowing yourself up if you overcommit at high peril levels.

Zealot and Ogryns

I don’t really play those classes enough to have “sophisticated” opinions.

Weapons

Here I’m a bit uncertain to be honest.

Infantry Autoguns:
Reduce overall Ammo (not clip size!) but increase damage alot. They should be the “little ammo but huge impact” weapons.

Infantry Lasguns:
Here I’d do the opposite approach. Make them (almost) ammo self sustained by default.

What are your thoughts / adds?

Fatshark, I love you, please rebalance certain aspects of the game ;-;

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I’ll start off with my opinions on your Arbitrator suggestions!

This DOES go a bit too far in my opinion. Here’s my stance on non-Dog Blitzes:

Impact Grenade
They should have 3/4 Grenades instead of 4/5.

Shock Mine
They should only last 8-10 seconds instead of 15 seconds.

Essentially, just nerf the Blitzes themselves in order to make Blitz Regen feel more balanced. That’d be preferable to forcing Players who want Blitz Regen to play with Remote Detonation Dogs.

I completely agree. This is endorsed by Khorne Dawg.

If this isn’t enough, maybe they also shouldn’t be able to Penetrate Carapace without Crits and/or Rending Talents? I’m pretty sure that’s how Ogryn’s Kickback works.

Post Scriptum:
You didn’t mention Concussive, but I am FIRMLY against how Concussive has a lingering effect.

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First +15 toughness that you’re forced to take should be replaced for Demo Stockpile

Duellist go down from 50% to 35-40%
Enduring faith go down from 50% to 35%
Invocation of Death go down from 200% to 100%

Enemies Within, Enemies Without from 2.5% to 5%
Vicious Offering from 10% to 15%
Martyr’s purpose should generate faster career ability based on missing wounds instead of the amount of damage the attack recieved from did. Up to a 100% faster generation when on your last wound

Loner now makes everyone be at least in 2 coherency, instead of only the Zealot

Completely rework the tree so we could pick blitz and auras more freely

Remove / Entirely rework: Bleed for the Emperor, Voice of Terra, Fortitude in Fellowship, Unremitting

Until Death now becomes a Zealot passive rather than a Talent

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Agree with everything but this. Should be a sub node to Martyrdom imo.

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I would make this ‘anyone missing a wound’ not just anyone. too powerful, and it negates a lot of aura boost nodes

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Smite needs a complete redesign, full details here.

Basically Smite should have charges, much like the Arbites Mastiff pulse. 3 charges, 60 second regen. Primary fire would be unchanged.

Soulblaze stacks need to be capped at 16 stacks from all sources. (enough to horde clear chaff)

Perilous Combustion will need to be redesigned since Soulblaze cap will turn it into a mediocre Talent.

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Good and relevant @Reginald video someone posted to another thread recently.

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That would be a huge buff, I’d say have it still be something requiring a node or two but at the start of three, available to be picked for all builds.

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I’d be fine with Voice of Command having a 45-Second Cooldown instead, but CDR needs to be giganerfed from orbit for that to actually mean anything. Gold Toughness itself is also too strong.

Completely agree. This is another Khorne Dawg endorsement.

I wouldn’t complain about Inferno Staff needing to Quell more often, but it also shouldn’t have infinite Cleave.

I’m in complete agreement with @IGN_Vera in regards to our (shared) idea about reworking Charged Smite to have limited Charges on a Cooldown. This would give Smite ACTUAL downtime while retaining its current function. See Arbitrator’s Remote Detonation and Ogryn’s Big Friendly Rock for examples of how that would work.

The buffs to Assail and Scrier’s Gaze that were introduced in the “Nightmares & Visions” Update need to be reverted. They were COMPLETELY unnecessary.

This is my video detailing where Infantry Lasguns should be improved:

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This

Enduring faith I disagree. It was nerfed a long time ago. The problem is more the IoD.
IoD totally agree about the bonus cut by half
Not agree with
Enemies Within, Enemies Without from 2.5% to 5%
Vicious Offering from 10% to 15%
=> should not be changed. And both.
Martyr’s purpose should be based on health missing.
Agree about loner

Until death should be at the bottom part (in Martyrdom part).

Considering Arbites, yes it could.
However, I would prefer that they permit to have a ranged zealot, so really different than the veteran.

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Objectivity is a tall order.

I’m completely convinced a general tree rework is inevitable. There’s just no way Vet and Zealot will stay the same. Psyker, too, although I’m personally not hurting for a psyker rework.

I can’t tell you which talents I think would remain in a new Veteran or Zealot tree because they both have a bloat of tax nodes that need to die, meta defining nodes way too high in the tree, and class defining nodes that are way too deep.

Example: Until Death and that other talent should just be one talent and either be a passive, the very first node you ever pick, or be in a keystone. There’s only so many areas in the tree it can be responsibly placed because it’s both meta defining and class defining. You can’t make enough talents good enough to compete.

Back stab talents need to all get removed because of how silly they are. You can’t backstab without stealth ult so what is the point of having stand alone talents no one wants to cross build into? They are a waste, all of them. No exceptions.

With Veteran, put his ammo talent at the top of the tree. Survivalist absolutely can’t be balanced against competing auras, make it a passive that only applies to self. The concept of team ammo regen needs to be rethought of and moved into a keystone or just that deep into the tree. Same with grenade regen.

Onslaught is a trashy talent that only works with full auto shooty builds but it’s ass deep into the melee side with no synergy. And all the other rending talents are even worse. Remove all of them. Or put Onslaught somewhere that makes sense.

I hate how the only talent meant to work with a 40k weapon is Shocktrooper. Non-40k weapons are absolutely spoiled with the amount of stacking multi-hit, high finesse, high mobility related talents while chain weapons, thammer, power sword get synergy with nothing.

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Regarding Duty and Honour, if the invincibility mechanism tied to Gold Toughness isn’t going to be fixed, it should be replaced with something like toughness damage reduction instead.
In the first place, the ability to instantly restore toughness to full even after it drops to zero, thanks to Voice of Command, is already extremely powerful.

VOC
VOC855×336 27.1 KB

DUTY
DUTY858×318 38.8 KB

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Ogryn’s Batter should probably be +1 stack of bleed on light attack, down from +2 imo.

That way it can still proc Delight in Destruction DR while preventing light attack spam issues.

Still, I’m keen to hear other perspectives on this one.

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Voc (and chorus) yellow toughness should be changed. The gold toughness should not allow you an immunity.
It should just be a toughness increase that would have an impact of the health lost by a melee hit, but it should never be a total immunity.

Not sure it would be the best solution, but this is the one that comes in my mind about this problem

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Oddly enough, I like and dislike the Arbiter dogs at the same time. Like, In 99% of cases dog destroys that very last single enemy that hits you in the back. But when there are 2-3 of them in a team (maybe this is only a temporary case, but still) - “lone specialists” like grenadiers, scorchers and nets - just drop out of the game. Moreover, the “get it” command is like a psyker’s brain burst, slower, but does not force you to focus on the target. Therefore, I would like the dogs to be on the level of enemy zombie dogs - pinning the target to the ground “for a longer time”, making an easy target for shooting, than just killing it in 2-3 seconds. Also, if the enemies are nearby, they could throw the dog off the ally with a hit or a shot, just chasing it away. While I fully agree that our dogs have no health, it still looks silly when they are sent to the other end of the map into a crowd of enemies and drop the gunner, when there are several more just one step away, but do nothing.
Veteran seems too fragile without “golden health”, if take the executor ability. Yes, this kind of implies for “team play” so that other players stand nearby and cover their shooter from the oncoming melee trash - but this does not work at the moment. Everyone runs to the assault. To compensate for the veteran as a SHOOTER - I would suggest making an update exactly to the executor, which gives +50% ammo from refills. At the same time, this would give an advantage in Havoc, where ammo is extremely low. In my opinion, it’s good for players who mostly prefer to shoot, and the extra ammo can be spent on approaching poxwalkers.
PS: let the plasma explode from overheating regardless of light attacks or charged ones. The risk of “dying” will immediately make handling this weapon more meaningful than spamming regular shots. And I agree with the news that a charged attack should consume as much ammo as it takes to charge. Whereas a normal shot would always consume “average”.
PS 2: 30 seconds for the Voice sounds good - but for the default one that replenishes toughness and drops enemies. The node that gives the golden shield - should also give a slow debuff in recharge, the same as the node with the revival. In all time I’ve seen probably only 2 level 30 veterans who used a voice without a golden shield upgrade.
Ogryn feels awesome after the update. I finally started using light attacks, and it’s a relief from the habit of requiring to charge up hits to restore toughness or apply bleed. However, now heavy attacks feel like an “extra option”. Вue to the speed of light attacks on clubs and knives - perhaps their usefulness is even higher than that of a series of heavy attacks. To make both options attractive 50/50, the bonuses from light attacks should be kept, but slightly reduced.

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first of all remove the childs play light spam effectiveness.

combined with the worst offender of bully 3 club rework how bleed works in general.

unless my ogryn feeds on aids or hepatitis i see no sense in me taking less damage for others bleeding like a pig.
lore wise nurgle rot should make them impervious to pain/exhaustion anyways, so bleeding them out should kill em yes but not affect their movement.

next, confident strike.
the talent tree is “fine” but that blessing gives one or two free talents if taken and with the then overtoughness regen and the light spam you’d need to have a stroke while playing to go down.

its just too much.

rumbler, honestly i dont play gunlugger so i regurgitate the burst limit override talent at that point, albeit in my matches have seen no ogryn caching in on this.
so i guess its a “connaisseur-thing” of those appreciating the finer arts :rofl:

cooldown on the ults.
yes, i’m guilty of charging right now like a wild hog myself, but there was a time when it rightly was your oh-sh!t/ich muss weg button.
and used with a brain and sparringly.

right now when everyone is “ult” all the time, no one is… its your default state and the rest is simply temporary hangover :man_shrugging:

get to those points first, within reason and a gameplan and see if thats enough to not yolo your way through the game from auric maelstrom and upwards

edit:
timer would have it i got two matches ogryn/arbites
same map same modifier back to back
dont have a tool for split screen editing so i had to upload each individually :man_shrugging:

despite the arbi match taking longer due to scan shenanigans i guess the outliers show (and thats with not using bugged damage boosting stuff out of principle)

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Hot take probably, but I don’t think infinite cleave is an issue, so long as it is useless against armor. In VT2 flame weapons were useless against armor, making it only really good against crazy big hordes and that felt ok to specialize in.

My main gripe with gold toughness, is that it can be replenished. vOC sets your max toughness to 150% for the duration, so even if the ability didn’t give you gold toughness, you can now regenerate it to that point. If it didn’t, I think it would be in a way better spot (combined with CDR nerfs of course).
This would not require a complete rework of the mechanic and thus be easier to implement.

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U dont know about psykers dont u?

This will be boost, not nerf.

We need to buff all others staffs, remove smite completely, adjust talent tree to be more flexible. Thats all.

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ah my favorite thread,
thammer buffs pls

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For Arbites, I would want to see their survivability tuned. They have so many ways to get toughness damage resist/damage resist/toughness regen that they are at Ogryn levels of survivability. Combined with the damage they do, this contributes the most to character tending to run off and kill everything solo. I’d like to see these numbers decreased on many of the nodes, either reduce the values of the resist/regen or the duration.

I’mma work my way through the tree and drop some thoughts

Target Neutralised - This one seems fine to me.
Man and Cyber-Mastiff - I can see this one staying as is even though it does mildly contribute to solo’ing. If you nerf the other nodes, this one seems fine
Up Close - I don’t have too much issue with this one either.
Force of Will - This should probably be reduced, when combined with Concussive, this is just 10% toughness regen on attack
Walk It Off - If this was just stamina spent from sprint, it’d be totally fine but you get it from stamina usage from pushing/blocking/etc. Probably should be reduced.
Shield Plates - I think this is fine
Canine Morale - 20% TDR for 5 seconds for the coherency seems like a lot. The toughness regen is fine. Stacks with Part of the Squad. Compare to the Zealot aura that gives just 15% TDR.
Imposing Force - 25% DR for 5s, either cut the amount or the duration.
Suppression Force - Not a resistance but this one’s fine.
Suppression Protocols - For how easy this is to proc, it’s gotta be nerfed in some way. Limiting it to only melee attacks that do damage would be one way. If it’s gonna be triggered on pushes and by the dog just jumping around it’s gotta be less TDR.
Part of the Squad - This is fine imo.
Lone Wolf - I don’t have an issue with the TDR here.
Castigator’s Stance - Lol. Having 10 sec of invulnerability is wack. Maybe rework this so you have to invest point(s) to get that level of damage resistance. But 80% resist in the base ability is just nuts. Getting all your toughness back is fine if they change the resist.
Nuncio-Aquila - This is fine imo, requires investment to get the TDR.
Break The Line - The toughness regen on hit seems fine.
Hold The Line - I think this is okay. It’s really easy to keep up with Concussive but it only blocks damage on a single melee hit.
Execution Order - The toughness regen seems fine. The DR against monsters is okay, I could see it getting nerfed slightly or just staying same if other things are changed.
Terminus Warrant - Terminal Decree - This seems like it would be good if melee stacks weren’t nonexistent. I think it is a cool mechanic that sucks on Vet because he just doesn’t have the same level of regen.
Forceful - An okay amount TDR for how Forceful works. Regen requires node investment. It is a keystone after all.

So yeah he has a ton of nodes that make him tanky and you only need to pick a couple to have really high TDR/DR always active. Nerf a few so that you don’t get to just pick all the damage nodes for free if you want to keep the same level of tankiness.

Other things that feel busted about the character are:

  • Voltaic Mandibles Augment: 5s of stun is way too long
  • Shock Mine: I’ve only run this with Lone Wolf, maybe it doesn’t seem so strong if you have to actually pickup grenade crates. But with LW, it’s just way too useful.
  • Concussive: This just feels like something you want in every single build. Idk what exactly I’d change though.
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